[00:00:00] Richard: I had a dream I was at my parents house on my birthday. I was looking for my sister since she hadn't wished me a happy birthday yet, which was odd because regardless of what was going on, she always treated my birthdays like it was special. Even if she was mad at me, or even in the hospital, she always took time to at least call.

[00:00:19] As I walked towards the front door, I started to wake up and remember, I wouldn't be getting a happy birthday call from her this year. Loss is one of life's guarantees, yet nothing can truly prepare us for it, whether expected or sudden. Saying goodbye to someone you love is a difficult task. One that makes a lasting impact on your life.

[00:00:38] I never imagined a world where my sister wouldn't be here with me. And certainly not this soon. Her passing was a moment that reshaped my perspective on life, And the way I see the world, welcome to unlearning the world through the looking glass, where we examine the moments, learnings, and experiences that change how we saw the world forever.

[00:00:58] I'm Richard and I'm joined by [00:01:00] Shannon and Becky. In this episode, we'll talk about our experiences with loss, the lessons we've learned and how we cope when dealing with the loss of someone we love. Let's get started. So this one is a little bit tough one for me, just because. A few years ago, I lost my sister right around my birthday, right at the end of the year.

[00:01:24] And I had lost people before, but you can never prepare how your life is going to change when you lose that someone or each individual person. It really took me to a place where I was worried about all of my loved ones, my wife, my dog, my parents. Cherishing life and living every day. I, I became, I started to be in a constant state of fear of loss.

[00:01:55] It took me a while to really overcome that. Probably, probably really a good [00:02:00] couple years to overcome that. But it really, after I was able to overcome that, it kind of reshaped the way that I see the world. Like little things don't bother me as much because You know, life is a breath and, you know, I really cherish all of the little moments and I try to be more present in these times now with the people that I love, that's a continued learning experience.

[00:02:29] And like I said, each loss is different. I lost, uh, one of my best friends. Not too long ago. And you think about somebody my age passing away, that really reminds you of your own mortality. So, 

[00:02:41] Shannon: yeah, I, I would agree. I think for me, death has always been challenging, but I've always had an acceptance for it. I don't know if it's because my first experience with death was when I was so younger, uh, when I was a little with my grandfather, but I [00:03:00] would say to me, I look at death as a reminder that.

[00:03:06] Like you said, you know, life is a breath, time, you're never guaranteed, but the most impactful was when one of my really good friends died at 14. So I was a sophomore in high school at that time, and so that took me out for a different reason. Um, more so because, you know, when a kid or a child dies, It's like they had so much to live for and then grappling and understanding that hey, it's not just you know A grandparent or someone that's older that's older than you that's lived a life it could be anyone at any time for any reason and so I Took that one probably the hardest I'm at that age because I didn't really understand like started asking God a lot of questions like Why this person?

[00:03:56] Why not me? They had so much to live for. They had so much to do. So those were [00:04:00] the questions that really started to grapple with me. And so death is always a shock, but as I've gotten older, it's more of an acceptance because I understand that, you know, tomorrow is not promised. And so really the factor of looking at time.

[00:04:17] Um, and valuing the time that I have with the people as they're here. 

[00:04:22] Beki: Yeah, and I guess, I don't know exactly where it started for me, but I, I feel like there were all of these different moments of death around me. I don't know part of it, and I know this is weird to, to compare, but I grew up on a farm. So with animals, they, they die pretty regularly, right?

[00:04:41] And I'm a person who attaches to animals quite a bit. And I almost think that that. prepared me in a sense on a smaller scale so that when I started losing people who were meaningful to me, I looked at it through a little bit of a different lens. I think the first one that [00:05:00] really stood out for me, um, and it's just because I admired her as much as I did, was my great grandmother.

[00:05:06] She had decided that she wasn't going to live to be 100 years old and something like three days before her nine, uh, before her 100th birthday, she passed away. And I had to laugh because, you know, she always set a goal and she hit it. And so it was one of those moments, but she was one of those people who could always soothe me when I was younger.

[00:05:27] And all of the sudden that anchor was gone. And that was really a difficult thing for me. The other one that stands out to me is honestly when my dad didn't pass away, uh, he had a brain aneurysm while I was at graduate school, and we were pretty certain that he wasn't going to pull through on that, but miracles happen, and he came through, and I think that's when I realized that it.

[00:05:53] live every day like it's your last. 

[00:05:55] Richard: Yeah. 

[00:05:55] Beki: And it really just opened my mind to, [00:06:00] wow, you have to live your life the way you want to, because if you don't do that, um, that's what you'll regret toward the end, right? That's what people always say. They don't regret working more. Right? They regret not working less.

[00:06:17] Richard: Right. Yeah. Like my sister passing away reminded me that old age isn't promised. Like everybody doesn't make it to old age and I think about the ages that I was when I've lost people before, like the first person that I could really remember losing was my dad's mom and she passed away and I had just really started college.

[00:06:38] I was really young, had a lot of things on my mind. I was close to my grandma, but not super close and she had lived a long life and she had been dealing with some health issues. So it really wasn't the biggest surprise to me. But the day of my grandmother's funeral, I lost my cousin. What was close fit and who was closer to my age.

[00:06:58] And I think at that [00:07:00] time, it was incomprehensible to me that I had lost somebody that close, that young. And I didn't cry for probably like literally like four months. And so like one day I was like in the middle of church and I had my eyes closed and I just started crying, thinking about my cousin. And so it's like the, the different people affect you differently.

[00:07:20] I mean, I'm even thinking about my best friend when he passed. I didn't cry until I told my mom, I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine, everything is fine. And when I got the actual words out, it's like it became real and I just started bawling. So yeah, I think like, uh, as we come across those times in life, you kind of get triggered and it's kind of like, no matter how long someone's been gone, you kind of have those things like the holidays just passed.

[00:07:51] Uh, any birthdays come up, your birthday, like my sister was big on my birthday. My birthday has been hard the last few years because my sister used to, [00:08:00] like, call me and make me Christmas cookies. And so you think about those things that are missing and you try to celebrate those. I'm still trying to figure out ways to.

[00:08:11] deal with those days as they come up and those triggers happen. 

[00:08:15] Beki: Yeah. And I think that it's, it's interesting too, when you talk about, you know, the, the lack of tears until a certain point, and then they show up sporadically, there's no one way to grieve. And I'm, I'm not one who cries a whole lot when it comes to people who have passed.

[00:08:35] I don't even know really that I cried much when my dad passed a couple of years ago. I think that with that, he also had been sick. He was also showing signs of not being thrilled with the way his life was at the time. So letting him go, I had actually had many conversations with him about You know, even if I don't get back in time, we've [00:09:00] said everything that we need to say.

[00:09:01] You know how much I love you. I know how much you love me. You don't need to wait. Ultimately, he did. That's who he was. And he was able to spend some time with us all together before he passed. Still, you know, I watch other people and they have the emotional reactions and, and that's right too. There's no.

[00:09:23] There's no right, there's no wrong, and different days have different moments. We celebrate the life of a friend of ours who ended up getting really sick. He was in his mid forties, had, you know, his wife, who he loved dearly, and a couple of kids who weren't even teens yet, I don't think. And, um, We, we celebrate his birthday every year, you know, we call it his day.

[00:09:48] And I think that's really important to find those ways to celebrate the life of someone. It makes me feel like they are still present with me as I, I bring [00:10:00] images or, uh, traditions to something. That they were part of and that way I get to remember them and I guess I feel like they're not really gone until no one remembers them, right?

[00:10:12] There's a tradition around that. 

[00:10:15] Shannon: Yeah, I don't, I don't think that I grieve properly. But again, like you said, there's no, there's no right way. And I, only can attribute that to, I'm just very familiar with death. And so I cry, I go to the funerals, I feel the feels, but I can't say that I sit in it. And I don't know if that is because I've experienced it so much, so much, if that makes sense.

[00:10:41] So like, By my sophomore year, I lost three to four, like, students or kids my age that I was close with, in some way, shape, or form. So having to go to funerals, having to see bodies, having to understand that the [00:11:00] kids that I was once around, I was friends with are no longer here. I cried, but it was just like a reality check of, I really thought and for a long time I was going to die young because of those experiences.

[00:11:14] And so now I've lost grandparents. I've lost great grands. I have cried. I have gone to funerals. I lost my favorite uncle and it hit me, but I don't think that I grieve. I kind of, again, I think have a really basic acceptance of life ends. It could be my faith. It could be those experiences. I haven't pinpointed it, but like, I don't sit in grief.

[00:11:39] I will go to the funeral. I will cry if I feel the need to cry. And then I just accept that they're no longer here. They're in a better place. It was supposed to be, that was their time on this earth. But I don't know if I grieve correctly to some, it might seem like it's heartless, but I think it's based off of the experience.

[00:11:59] I've, I've [00:12:00] literally seen death too much. That I, I don't want to say I'm numb to it, but I accept it because I know it's a part of life. 

[00:12:08] Richard: I think, uh, you said something that was really, that's really important. You said that you, you cry and you let, you, you, you actually are grieving. Yeah. And I think the, the times that I had the hardest time dealing with a loss is when I didn't grieve.

[00:12:23] Like when my sister was so much going on, to put it into context, when my sister passed away, my wife's father had just passed away. So I was trying to make sure that my wife was comforted. And as much as I miss my sister, I was trying to make sure my parents were okay because they just lost a daughter.

[00:12:43] They lost a child, which is something that right is never supposed to happen. So I had, I mean, I guess I didn't have to, but I held it in to hold everybody in, hold my sister's partner down, hold my parents down, hold my wife down. So I didn't really get to grieve. And I felt [00:13:00] like, like for a year straight, like I really just.

[00:13:03] Didn't grieve properly, like talking about grieving properly, I didn't show like any emotions. I really didn't cry. Just was trying to be there, be strong for everybody. And then like I was on a literal video shoot where I was filming and I just broke down behind the camera. Just randomly, like it just happened.

[00:13:21] I was asking, I was in the mid question and my eyes started welling up and I just couldn't hold it in any longer. And I think the fact that you actually deal with it probably helps out a lot. And, and I think about, like you said, your faith, I think about my faith as well. And you think about like your beliefs.

[00:13:42] I think sometimes that makes it a little bit harder or easier. Like when you think about the way that people live, it's like, if you have a certain belief system and you believe that it's a heaven or hell, then if they didn't believe the way that you did, then it's like, Oh God, where are they going? Right.

[00:13:58] Uh, so I think that can make it [00:14:00] harder or a little bit more comforting depending on like what you believe and what the person who passed away believe. 

[00:14:06] Beki: And yet we're also within that belief system, right? We're also not the person who makes that decision, 

[00:14:12] Shannon: right? 

[00:14:12] Beki: Right. And I wonder, too, you know, when you think about that choice of holding on to your own loss while relieving other people.

[00:14:24] If someone were to say that they were about to do that, what would you, what advice would you give them in that kind of situation? Would you recommend that they take care of everybody else and hold onto their own until later? Or what, what would you ask them to do or recommend they do? 

[00:14:41] Richard: In retrospect now, I think that I should have found time for me, just because it wasn't healthy for me mentally.

[00:14:48] It wasn't even healthy for me physically, honestly, because, It was so mentally taxing that it really was affecting my health. Like, I just wasn't myself. I was lethargic. I think the thing is, is that you can [00:15:00] only be what others need so long and neglect yourself for a certain amount of time before you're not able to be yourself anymore.

[00:15:07] And I think it's really important to just find time, even if it's just a little bit of time. I wish that I had, I took a little bit of time to actually grieve and cry and focus and be a little bit more selfish and just focus on myself. Just because by being selfish, I could have been better for everybody else.

[00:15:22] If that makes sense, I could have been better for myself. I could have been better for everybody else. But I think the thing that really kept me is that I was really happy that I was married and I had my wife there with me. I mean, we were both grieving together cause we were both, I was leaving her father, she was giving her father, I was leaving my sister, she was giving her sister, we're grieving together.

[00:15:42] So having her to comfort me like that was. Like, I can't even put into words how appreciative I am of having a partner in that particular moment, just because I don't know how I would have, even holding in stuff, like, I don't know how I would have been able to accomplish that year [00:16:00] without having her with me.

[00:16:01] Shannon: Mm hmm. Yeah. I would say it's really about nature though, right? Some people, when they are grieving or they are mourning, they need to do something. I have people in my family that do that. When it came to your sister and her funeral, you did innately, Hey, I have to take care of this, this, and this. And I think that is still a form of grieving, whether it's healthy or unhealthy of not crying.

[00:16:24] A lot of people go to that because the moment that they don't have something to do, like, like you experienced, that's when it hits you when the funeral is over over and the time is over. What do you do with all of those feelings? Because at that point in time, you were able to compartmentalize and I'm going to take care of this.

[00:16:42] I got to look at my parents. I got to look at that. I feel like I'm that person. But again, in the same retrospect, it could, I really think maybe it's just my faith at this point. I just don't have the capacity to really sit in the hurt. Cause I [00:17:00] know that. I've just learned to value the time that I have because I know death is inevitable.

[00:17:04] So that's kind of my solace in it. I can still get sad and cry, but I'm going to also be that person that's going to go and make sure that everyone's good. And that's how I'm going to get through everyone else crying around me and every, everything else that's happening. Um, but I don't necessarily think that was not you grieving.

[00:17:24] I think that was a part of. Your grief, you want it to be the support system for your family at that time. 

[00:17:30] Richard: Well, like I needed to be, and I don't know how great that was. 

[00:17:36] Beki: Well, and at the same time though, it's one of those things where, and I like that Shannon, that idea of I'm, I'm going to put my grief into action.

[00:17:46] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:17:46] Beki: And when my dad died, there was. An associated sort of trauma feels like a strong word, but difficulty for me around that same time that was kind of related. [00:18:00] And I know that, you know, I kept on going and I probably took about a week or so. I lost my voice, couldn't speak. My husband had to order for me and people were kind of looking at him like, why are you ordering for your wife?

[00:18:18] And then I would squawk and they'd go, oh, that's why. And I know that that was mind body, uh, reaction there. And then when I got back and recovered most of my voice, I started coaching again and people would say, are you sure you're ready to be back at work? Oh yeah, absolutely. This helps, which was true. It actually was true.

[00:18:39] And then I did a training. Probably about three, three or four months later, I think it was three months later, and I was awful. I drove home from that thinking, yeah, okay, so I wasn't ready for that then. And the feedback I got was like, well, she was meandering. And I'm like, yep, [00:19:00] yep, I was absolutely couldn't keep a thought in my head.

[00:19:03] And I realized at that stage how much I had. I've been living a little bit in a cloud during that time. When I was one on one coaching, I could immerse myself into another person. But as soon as it became more than one person, I couldn't handle the sensory overload and my brain shut down again. And it was a powerful awakening for me of That's something to test going forward, right?

[00:19:29] Put yourself with two people and see if you can handle that. And maybe don't put yourself as the center of a group within a short period of time. And that was for me, other people might've blossomed in that kind of environment. For me, I just shut down and shut off. 

[00:19:45] Richard: That fog is real. 

[00:19:47] Beki: That fog is real.

[00:19:48] Richard: Thinking about that fog, like I feel like me and my wife talked about it, like we actually Like what that year, that next year, that new year is, we kind of like got together and we [00:20:00] like prayed and did all these things saying like, we're not going to have another year where we spend so much time basically in a fog and our grief.

[00:20:11] And I think one of the things that grief will show you too, it will pull out the real friends. It will pull out the real, like, I mean, family is family, friends is friends, they don't always overlap. Sometimes it's different, but you really see in those moments who really cares and who really understands, like, what it means when a friend is grieving to be there.

[00:20:35] I will say that I do look at some people differently, good and bad, based off of how I was treated, how they came to my rescue and my aid, or they just completely disappeared when I needed their support. And so I try to be a better friend when people are going through, and I also try to give other people grace because I never know how they're dealing with their own grief.

[00:20:59] So I treat [00:21:00] my, I give my family a little bit more grace and I give other people a little bit more grace because. You never know what somebody's going through. So, I'm a little bit less harsh when it comes to certain things. 

[00:21:10] Shannon: Yeah. I also, I think that that's true. Everyone mourns differently. And so I'm also that person that, if you are mourning, and you lost someone, And you want to cry to me.

[00:21:22] I get very uncomfortable by other people's tears, deal with it in therapy guys. And, um, so I'm the person that's going to try to make you laugh. Right. But I realized that's not always the sentiment that's needed. So for me, what I've learned in my adult years is. I could just sit with you because sometimes when someone's mourning and they've just lost someone, they don't want you to talk, they don't want you to ask questions, so I sit.

[00:21:47] Do you want an alcoholic beverage? Do you need anything? No? If you don't want to talk about this person, cool, we'll sit here, we'll talk about something else. If you do, so sometimes it's really just holding space when people are mourning because I don't like to [00:22:00] assume, especially because how I am, I know everyone's not like that, right?

[00:22:04] Some people just want to sob for an hour. Some people don't want to be touched. Some people want embrace. And so I've just learned to really sit and hold space for people and show up how they need. And if they say, I want to be alone, I don't usually always listen to that because that's. Again, therapy has helped, but I will, I will just sit.

[00:22:24] I won't, I'll just sit with you. Right. You know, I'll just breathe together. Yeah. Let's just breathe together. But that's really the thing that I've learned because I know that not everybody mourns the same way. And really it's just about holding space however they need to. And also giving grace if someone doesn't know that.

[00:22:44] Cause that took me a while to really understand and you'll, you'll expect your BFF to like just show up and do exactly what you need. But if you're not vocalizing that they might not know. And so I give grace for people that really don't maybe have not experienced [00:23:00] lost on the level that you have. And so the expectation for them might be a little less, but for me, how I try to show up is I hold space.

[00:23:08] I will come, I will sit. If you want to drink, we can drink. If you want to cry, I might crack a joke, but I will let you cry.

[00:23:21] Beki: People cry around me a lot. And, and I think it's because I kind of give off that vibe that. And I'll even verbalize. Yeah, I guess I just make people cry. I do. I do it in my coaching. I do it in my life. I do it everywhere I go. But I think part of that is when people recognize that I'm okay with it. Cause everyone apologizes right away.

[00:23:41] I'm like, no, that's the, that release that you need right now, no matter what you are releasing, just. Let it go. And, but at the same time, I hear you, you know, before I experienced it thoughtfully in terms of the loss of someone, I was always [00:24:00] uncertain about what to do when someone was grieving. I didn't really understand.

[00:24:04] I felt like there was a formula that no one had ever shown me before. And it turns out, no, the only thing I would say is saying, you know, Hey, if you need anything, call me. Well, nobody knows what they need. It seems like that does seem like the one universal. And I like how you were talking about that in terms of asking the questions.

[00:24:23] Do you want to just sit here? Do you want to hang out? Do you want to talk about something? What do you, you know, what's calling to you right now? And it's not future based. It's right now. And that feels like a, a critical piece of what I needed. I didn't know what I was going to need an hour from now. I just knew where I was right now.

[00:24:42] Right. 

[00:24:42] Richard: Probably the best. Thing that we got during the grieving process when we had lost, we actually had lost three people and one very short span of time, literally like a week. The best gift that we got, somebody got us like a DoorDash gift card. [00:25:00] Yeah. And that was like one of the thing between my parents and my sister's partner and my wife and, and all of our family we're called, have you eaten today?

[00:25:08] That was kind of our thing. None of us wanted to eat. But we knew that we needed to sustain. And so that was like, probably the best thing that we got was that, cause it made it easier for us to be able to eat. 

[00:25:22] Shannon: See, most people I know like push food away. So the last time that I had someone close to me, they lost, they lost their, their parent.

[00:25:31] And we bought food over and she didn't eat, but we still bought it. Um, and I said to her, what do you need at this point in time? She needed, you know, alcohol and just for someone to sit. But I will tell you the cardinal thing I no longer say is I'm, I'm so sorry for your loss. And some people are like, why?

[00:25:50] Because I was told by someone, they're like, you, it makes it seem like you understand my feeling. Right. And so you don't. And so when you're saying [00:26:00] you're so, so of course you're sorry, what else are you going to say? So I try to you, I say that with a caveat, so I'll say, I can't imagine what you're experiencing right now.

[00:26:08] I can't imagine the pain that you feel. I'm so sorry that for your loss, but I add that in there, right? Because it's kind of a thing of, I don't, I can't imagine. I don't know what you're feeling. And so from that, I'm here for whatever you need, even if it's just me to sit, sit with you. So those are now more.

[00:26:27] My prayers are with you and your family. But I put that all together because I've had two people on occasion say, like, when people say that it's so like, I'm just checking it off the box and not really, they don't grasp what they're really saying. So I have learned that, um, I don't get offended by it, but I, I don't, I want to be sensitive to people.

[00:26:48] that have lost someone around them. 

[00:26:51] Beki: Right. And I think that goes back to what we were saying before too, about some people don't know what to say. So that's the only thing that they can think of. And when [00:27:00] that starts to happen, I guess I kind of go back to they're doing the best that they can with what they have.

[00:27:07] And you're not always in a place when you're deep in grief to be able to accept that that's the best that someone can do. But with, with hindsight, you can see that and say. Okay, I, I didn't appreciate it at the time, but they did what they could with what they had. 

[00:27:26] Richard: It is. It's awkward being on the other side.

[00:27:28] It's awkward being on both sides, really, just because, like, usually, when you're grieving, you're in that fog, but even if you're grieving a little bit and you're trying to comfort somebody else who's really, really grieving, it's like, really, like, what do I say? Yes. Like, I had a, I had a friend that lost a sibling after I lost a sibling.

[00:27:44] It's like, I understand to an extent what you're going through. I know what it feels like for me to lose a sibling, but I don't know what it feels like for you to lose a sibling. So it's really hard for me to communicate my condolences because it's like, I'm sad and awkward and [00:28:00] you don't want to say the wrong thing.

[00:28:01] And it's like, is there a wrong thing to say? Is there a right thing to say? So you just kind of like. Hi. Like, I'm here if you need me. Try to avoid them. Like, try to do your best. It's just, it's really awkward. I think that's a, that's something that I feel like, Shani, you kind of hinted upon is that you really just, it's really an awkward time when somebody's lost somebody.

[00:28:20] You don't know what to say because you don't know what they're going through. You don't know what they need, I think. It's just tough. 

[00:28:26] Shannon: Yeah. I, okay. I'm going to go left a little bit with this whole conversation. Right. Cause I don't think there ever is a right thing to say because it just depends on the person and how they're, how they're feeling.

[00:28:36] You do the best you can. My lesson was just so, cause I never thought about it like that in regards to my response because it is so like, it's like saying, hi, how are you doing? We save that. universally when we don't really care. It's just, it comes out naturally. Right. When you're, when you're talking to people, but I would say overall, this is, I want to say the [00:29:00] world, but I'll say the United States, I think we just have a, a real problem with time,

[00:29:11] understanding that time is fleeting and also death in general. Like I wasn't raised to know, or realistically from a societal perspective, we are selfish with our time. We think it is everywhere all the time. And so when some people are never prepared for death, it's like, they're never prepared to lose someone.

[00:29:29] They're never prepared to lose a parent. And I don't, I don't know how to shift that ideal. Cause there's, there's other religions and nations that I think celebrate death, right, are prepared for it that, you know what I mean? And I don't. Think we as a nation really think like that. Maybe it's from a religious standpoint, maybe it's just societal.

[00:29:53] I don't know, but I think I'm leaning more. I'm like, I'm at this point in my life. Always [00:30:00] prepared for death. Does it suck to get the call? Absolutely. But I know it's inevitably going to happen as I know that I'm going to pass away. So now when I'm speaking with people, my husband, like my son, if I die tomorrow, I would hope that everyone that has experienced me in some way, shape, or form would say she loved, there was, I said, I love you to my husband.

[00:30:27] My son knows I'm good and it would be hard, but everyone would have that moment, that memory, that experience of me that they could have some solace in. And know that I'll be okay. I don't think we were raised that way. I don't think society prepares us for that in this way in America. That's just my overarching opinion.

[00:30:47] I know that was really left, but I just thought. No, I think it was on point. 

[00:30:51] Beki: Yeah, I think so too. And I think that there's a, the whole piece of that, of how do we prepare others. even when we're [00:31:00] young or relatively young, to be able to reconcile that for other people. When my dad was sick, actually, I had three parents sick at the same time.

[00:31:13] And I think that there's a, uh, an element of thinking through your own fallibility during that whole time. And in my family, we have a lot of things that we could inherit. So who knows what's going to happen to me. And some of them could happen at any time with no warning. And I, I think I've really gotten to a point where, well, I do kind of joke about it.

[00:31:43] It's not very funny. It's a little bit dark humor, but, but it's, it's just one of those things that I know is true. And. is, is just kind of hovering around all of the time. One of the, the gifts that my mother in law gave [00:32:00] us as she passed away and had been building for the decade before was this whole roster of people.

[00:32:07] These are the people that you call. These are their phone numbers. These are the people that you won't be able to call them by phone, but this is the social media where you'll find them. And it was, she had it all laid out. And I haven't done it yet, and it's been a long time, but I keep on thinking about, wow, that's, that's a powerful thing.

[00:32:29] I really want to think about what is it that I want to leave as that legacy, like what people would say about their experiences with me. And also, how do I make it as easy as possible for the executors that I have to be able to handle all of the business and of death as well. Because that's hard to 

[00:32:51] Richard: forget about.

[00:32:52] Beki: The business of death is big. 

[00:32:56] Richard: It sure is. Sure is. It is. Thinking about when [00:33:00] my sister passed, we had to sit and figure out, like, what are we going to say in the obituary? Who, who, like, where is it going to be at? Like, who do we call? Because I knew a lot of my sister's life and her partner knew a A lot of her life.

[00:33:18] And my mom knew part of my sister's life. So, you know what I mean? It was parts that we all knew separately. And some of them, some of them overlapped. So it was really difficult. Like we got to figure it out instantly. When we had those losses, me and my wife started to sit down and start to talk to one another.

[00:33:34] Like, all right, if you pass, what would you want to do? Like, where would you want to, do you want to be cremated? Do you care? Do you want to casket? Do you care? Do you want to be like my, um, when my best friend passed. He, his service was just like his mom's service who had passed. It wasn't even like a funeral.

[00:33:52] It was more like a gathering where we sat and we remembered and talked and mourned together. But it was more like, [00:34:00] it was more like a celebration than like an actual funeral. Like, so do you want something like that? Do you want a traditional funeral? Like, do you want to open casket? Do you want to close casket?

[00:34:10] Death kind of starts when other people die. It kind of reminds you that like, kind of like what Shannon was saying, like. Oh crap, we don't have all the time in the world. Like most things in life aren't permanent like us. Like one day we will pass from this earth and how do we prepare? So I think whenever that happens, it's like, we really started to prepare.

[00:34:30] We really started to get things in order. And I think, uh, I mean, now with a child coming and everything, but before that, when I got married, like, I was like, okay, now we need some life insurance because. If I pass, I want to make sure that, that my wife is straight and preparing for death. I think it's important.

[00:34:49] My sister, I'm so happy that she had life insurance, but especially like, like, you know, some communities teach like death [00:35:00] as a part of when someone passes, it's sad to see them go, but that person passes and they set you up, they set you up for, uh, for wealth and like access and property. And it's like, I can speak specifically in a lot of the Black communities that I've seen and been a part of.

[00:35:19] A lot of us don't, won't have life insurance and it's like, Oh, we got to do a GoFundMe. GoFundMe is not life insurance. GoFundMe is not life insurance and life insurance isn't for you. It's not for you. It's for the people that you love. Like, no one should have to stress about trying to figure out how they're going to get the money together to bury you.

[00:35:44] Because just a, just a cremation is 5, 

[00:35:47] Shannon: 000. 

[00:35:47] Richard: Most people don't have 5, 000 sitting around. And you think about, like, what you, like, you're not going to be here. Think about how you want your family, like, I want my family to be straight. Like my, my wife relies on my [00:36:00] income. I rely on her income. If something happens to me, I want her to be able to keep our house that, that we love, you know what I mean?

[00:36:06] I want her to, to not have to get a second job, to be able to take care of the kids, you know, like. So thinking about that, like, I think that is like a very big thing is just making sure that your life insurance is filled out, that you have the right declarations, that you have a beneficiary filled out and filled it out properly so that nobody has to go through probate court or anything like that.

[00:36:30] Cause it's stressful enough to lose somebody. It's stressful enough that you're gone. Please don't make your family stress about money after you're gone. 

[00:36:38] Beki: Yeah, and it's also passwords to different accounts and things like that that are available that it's so important to be able to access some of those things.

[00:36:48] And I mean, we ported my mother in law's phone over to my husband so that, All of her spam calls could come to him and there's a shocking number that come in [00:37:00] and, you know, the also, you know, having that will in place to have that executor identified. Who is the person that you want to take the lead? That doesn't mean they have to do it on their own.

[00:37:12] It just means that they are the key person. When my siblings and I were working through my dad's kind of a state. It was one of those things where we all weighed in, but if we disagreed, there was one person who could make a choice. And that was understood. It was understood because that person had been named.

[00:37:34] Shannon: Yeah. I would say, going back to, this is crazy because I'm experiencing this right now. Um, going back to what you said, Richard, there are so many, especially in the Black community, that it's, this is not a thing. This is not a conversation. This is I can tell you there is a person in my family that says, what do I care?

[00:37:57] I'm dead and gone. And so those are the [00:38:00] types of conversations. So I am the life insurance queen in my family. I am currently the executor for my grandmother's estate, which has been interesting to go through. One, because sorry, grandma, but her will was dated to her deceased husband, my grandfather, I was like six or seven when he passed.

[00:38:22] So understanding that if that is your current will and testament, where does all of your assets go? Where, like where, so I had to explain that to her, you had to sit with lawyers. And so, yes, it gets. Very like legalized when we're talking about death. But I also think it's really important to, if you've lived a life and you've set it up so that your children will get it or your children's children will get it, that it's put into proper.

[00:38:46] So proper steps so that that actually does happen. So I am the person, I talked to my mom about it. I'm like, Hey, you have life insurance. Me and my husband, this could be dark and gloomy for people, but I'm like, again, let life and death, it's part of [00:39:00] life. My husband, I know what he wants. He knows what I want.

[00:39:06] One of us dies before the other. Exactly what's going to happen. Life insurance is in place. I even at this point took life insurance out for my child because you don't know the hour, the time of death. And so as of late, I've seen a lot of children pass away and I've seen a lot of GoFundMes. And so I really, it's so, I don't want to say like, people don't want to talk about it.

[00:39:32] Like, why do you, it's not about profiting off of death. But it's also making sure that I can cover the death and bury you properly and make sure that if you have bills and like your house and your assets and all those things are covered. So as much as if people don't like to talk about it, I really think family should take the time to say, Hey, if I'm not here, and communicate that.

[00:39:54] It shouldn't be like just talking to a lawyer. Communicate what you want to your family whenever [00:40:00] the time comes, because then it's not a surprise and I'm not crying in the corner trying to figure out what you would want. Right. I want 

[00:40:07] Beki: to be able to honor you in the way that I want to honor you. Yeah. And I want to be able to celebrate you in the way that I want to celebrate you.

[00:40:15] And if I'm crying in the corner because I don't know where the money's coming from in order to, to do that for you, because Really, that's what we do is we honor the one who has passed and one of the things that we actually persuaded my dad to do, though, arguably, he was pretty easy to persuade is that you can prepay and preplan the funeral and when you have that idea.

[00:40:41] In place they actually put it into essentially a life insurance policy so that it actually grows and so it's an investment weirdly and he was like well what does that look like and my mother in law had done it that's how I knew about it and she had set it [00:41:00] up so long ago that it had grown significantly and she really wanted to make sure.

[00:41:06] That that money didn't just go into the ether. So there was a lot that we had to talk about related to that, but it was. something for her to feel good about, and then my dad to feel good about, that this is actually planned. We didn't even have to think about service so much because he didn't get down to choosing the songs.

[00:41:26] And my mother in law said that if we had a service, she would haunt us. So there was that. So we did one of those celebratory graveside kinds of things because that technically wasn't a service we hoped. And, but there are so many different ways that you can do that. So they're even part of it. And they can identify what they want, and they are awkward sometimes, and in other circumstances, I think that it's It's almost a relief to be able to have the conversation in some ways too.

[00:41:57] Richard: I think in the communities that [00:42:00] I've been a part of, talking about money and death are like two taboos. And those are two things that we really need to talk about because you really can't get anywhere with like wealth without talking about how money is made and teaching your kids. How to run a business and how to do your trade and how to manage money.

[00:42:24] And Hey, don't blow all your money here. And so it's like that your child doesn't need to relearn the lessons that you're learning. And then even in death, like that's such a, we can't talk about death because you're going to die. Like, well, everybody's going to die. 

[00:42:37] Beki: Right. Let's 

[00:42:37] Richard: talk about it. So 

[00:42:38] Beki: I'm 

[00:42:39] Richard: curious, I'm curious, Becky, like in the communities that you've been a part of.

[00:42:43] Is that different? Like, are the people you've been around, like, has your family been more open to talk about it or no? 

[00:42:49] Beki: Oh, no. No. I never knew anything financial about my parents at all. At all. Until my dad was starting to [00:43:00] experience the strong decline of his health. When he was first diagnosed, he was like, yeah, you don't need to worry about me.

[00:43:06] I got this. I'll beat this. And we're all like, yeah, except for you kind of won't, right? You don't beat life. And. And so I think for him, it was when it really became clear to him that he wasn't going to heal from this disease. And he realized that when his father had passed, there were a lot of questions that needed to be answered by him and he didn't want that for us, but that did not happen until and then it was only going to be like we were not able to contribute in any way.

[00:43:46] And I can do this. I can do it myself because he's been an independent guy, I think, since he was born. It's almost like it's hereditary. And my mom still, she'll share a little bit about what she wants, but she still [00:44:00] really struggles with talking about the financial side of things. And I don't know that that's hugely different in the communities, like with my grandparents.

[00:44:14] There was always the secrecy and kind of keeping it quiet, don't tell the kids, and I was always like, how am I supposed to learn how to plan for these kinds of things if you don't communicate with me about how to do that? And that was even health topics. My doctors ask me, you know, well, what's your family history on this?

[00:44:34] Well, I guess I'll go excavate that part of my family history then and see what kind of resistance that I get for even talking about those things. Thanks. I, I definitely Feel like the communities that I have been a part of, I will say more recently, like with my husband's family, it's been far more open, and I think that's because they kind of hit those markers a [00:45:00] little bit earlier, but with my family and with others that I have been connected to through friends, et cetera.

[00:45:08] There's not been a lot of communication around it. In fact, it's even a sibling struggle in terms of getting all of them on the same page of we should be talking about this. There's some siblings that think they should and some that say, no way, this is, this isn't going to happen that soon. You don't need to worry about it.

[00:45:28] Shannon: That throws me, but I think to go back to just the morning part, right? What a blessing it is. When you are prepared, right? And maybe they are old age or maybe they are sick. So you have time and moments with those loved ones, right? Where you get to kind of say goodbye. But there are so many people that death comes like in an instant.

[00:45:50] Yes. You don't have that luxury. And so I think people have to start thinking of death like that. It's in my experience, it's not always old age and it's [00:46:00] not always like, Hey, they were sick in the hospital or Hey, they were 90. I've had those blessings where it's like, Hey, I have 90. Years of like lineage and they lived a life and I can have solace in that.

[00:46:13] But to look at death, like, again, it's a thing of, I think people sometimes look at death as like an afterthought in the afterlife, but it's like, don't do that. Right. Have the conversations when you can. And if you lose someone, there's so many great memories to remember. Like, I know when I get sad. I just think about a last conversation.

[00:46:37] If it was a good one, I've never not had a good one, but in an instance like that, where it's like the last conversation, a funny moment. And that's how I kind of, when I mourn, that's what I do. But I also think that people have to stop thinking that death only comes. Oh, that's you don't have to worry about that.

[00:46:54] But what if I do like, I, I could walk outside and something can happen. And so [00:47:00] I hate, I hate sometimes being that person. Cause maybe it's the realist in me, but I also just look at like life differently. Okay. It's you you should cherish life, but you should also accept death because it's gonna come to all of us 

[00:47:13] Beki: Well, and if you don't cherish the life, my belief is that's where the regret comes Yeah death and not only your own but other people where You feel like you didn't spend the time with them that you would have chosen to in that circumstance.

[00:47:29] I know one of my great aunts passed away in Sweden, and we were going to go back to Sweden. And we knew how old she was. We knew she wasn't doing well. And we didn't make it back. Other priorities. Okay, including COVID, but also a lot of priorities came in first. And when she passed, I just, I still have a little bit of regret around that.

[00:47:51] And at the same time, right, we've got these great memories. And when I think of her, you know, I, I have all of these warm [00:48:00] feelings around her. And I like what you described there, Shannon, where it's like, let's think about what are those good moments. I think about my mother in law and me laughing hysterically in a, in a restaurant and probably causing a little bit of a scene, right?

[00:48:17] And, and, you know, but it was a joyful scene. It wasn't like we were fighting. So I think that's, if I'm going to create a scene, that's the kind of scene I want to create because that's when I can remember that person fondly, whether they're alive and distant or they've passed through with death. 

[00:48:34] Richard: I was fortunate enough that before my sister passed, like, I think it was Maybe like three or four days before she passed she called me just randomly and she was fine when she called me So I know she was going through some health stuff here and there but she was fine when she called me and we just talked For an hour just randomly and it's like, you know, like you in the middle I was in the middle of the day like me and my wife were looking for houses.

[00:48:58] I was tired. I was working a job We were in a house [00:49:00] that was way too small as three people Uh, uh, my wife and her sister and we had one bathroom and I was going crazy and I was like, I really don't want to talk to nobody. And I saw my sister and I was like, Hey, what's up sis? And I talked to her for an hour and I called her the day before she passed and being able to have talked to her right then, like in those moments.

[00:49:24] Like, before she passed, taking that time to talk to her for an hour. Like, it's really something, like, I feel good. Like, you know, I don't have any guilt. Like, if I had to blew that call off, I would have had a ton of guilt. Absolutely. But being able to, like, know that I, I had, I was blessed and fortunate enough to say goodbye to her, um, that gave me a lot of comfort.

[00:49:44] I think the other things that really gave me comfort is that Luckily, I had had her record an episode of a show with me, so I can go back and listen to that episode and I can hear her voice. And I have videos, uh, of her and I can go and look [00:50:00] at the videos and I can see her singing and a video that she wanted me to erase that she probably would kill me if she knew I looked at it.

[00:50:08] Beki: That makes it all the more joyful. It makes it great 

[00:50:11] Richard: to have that. I remember when my, um, my wife's father passed, like the first thing I did was like we took her, her cell phone and we took all the voicemails he had left and we, and I digitized them and backed them up for her. So. And then we made like a long string that she can listen to just to hear her father's voice.

[00:50:28] That's like the thing that I think our generation has the benefit of having that a lot of other, like you had to be like a celebrity in the past to be able to have that stuff. But now we have like thousands of pictures right on our phone and we're able to do videos and voice recording. And I think that today's technology has really helped with not only the memory, but help with the grieving because I've heard so many people say.

[00:50:55] Like, I'm so afraid that I'm going to forget how that person sounded. 

[00:50:59] Beki: So, to 

[00:50:59] Richard: be able [00:51:00] to listen to, like, even my grandfather, I have videos of him, like, being able to see that stuff and hear their voice and just be like, it's like comfortable, like, modern technology has helped so much with the whole process of, of grieving and being able to think about your loved ones.

[00:51:17] For me. 

[00:51:18] Beki: Well, and it makes me think about, you know, as you have children, there's that opportunity too to say, this is what your auntie sounded like. This is what your grandfather, grandmother, whomever sounded like. And there's, there's something to that. On the flip side, I, I received a text message from my niece once.

[00:51:40] Sorry, hon. And she had sent me the audio of my dad wishing her a birthday. And he, he was always so funny. Phones and cell phones in particular, he never quite adapted to. And he'd be like, when he would call me, he'd be like, hello, Rebecca, this is your father. Just wanted to wish you a happy birthday, as if I [00:52:00] didn't know who he was when he called.

[00:52:02] Um, and, and he did that with all of us, you know, and, um, and, and so she sent me this and I wasn't expecting it. And I didn't, I thought it was a picture. I didn't really look that closely. And then all of a sudden I hear his voice and I wasn't ready for it. And it just sent a shock through my system. And I, it, it just triggered one of those right.

[00:52:25] And it's, and it's that technology that can help us. And at the same time, there should be like, I don't know, trigger warnings that come with it when you share it with someone else of, Hey, by the way, this is so and so's voice and be ready. You just have to know how to share those kinds of things. She did it with the warmest and most beautiful heart possible.

[00:52:45] She had no idea, nor did I really, that I would have such a reaction to it. 

[00:52:49] Shannon: Yeah. So. My little one is seven and unfortunately he's already gone to two funerals. And I had to really, me and my husband had to think [00:53:00] about those moments. One, he does not remember the other one he does, but there was no one. It was the whole family.

[00:53:06] So he saw me cry, wipe my tears, hit a very, very harsh response to that funeral. So I'm still processing if that was the right decision, but because We go to church, we believe in God, so we are those. So he is very now inquisitive of death and God and where they go. And so those are the conversations I'm having with my child now, which is totally fine because I also think that it's important that he understands to value life.

[00:53:40] But what I did for his first birthday, some of my family refused to participate, which really sucks, but I had everyone write him a letter. It was really more important for my grandmother, for people that are older, to write him a letter that we will give, um, at his older age, so like 21, when he's out of the house, so anyone [00:54:00] that was present for his first birthday, whatever they wanted to say, words of wisdom, are in this box, and we have like curated it for him, and he's always like, what's in the box?

[00:54:08] I'm like, just something for your future, so that, There could be pictures. They, they have the option. All the letters were, I didn't read any of the letters. They're enclosed. They could be pictures, funny stories, memories, prayers, whatever. They went in the box for his first birthday. Some of my family members chose not to participate in that.

[00:54:26] I thought that I was being morbid. But to me, I thought that was something special because you don't know if you're going to be here. When he's 21. I personally bless my grandmother's heart. I love her. She is still living. 21 years is a long time. She's 89 at this point and he's seven. So 21, she would be a history breaker, record breaker.

[00:54:46] Yes, absolutely. I wanted him to have these letters and pictures and memories from that time. And so that was kind of what I asked for the, for, I didn't ask for any gifts. I said, if you can just write him a letter [00:55:00] that he can take. With him as lineage to you the love you have for him this moment this day and that was really special to me And so I was kind of disheartened by some people but I that didn't want to participate in that But I understand again people don't look at death the same way But I innately know that it's coming and I would love my son to have a memory of you that he can have 

[00:55:23] Beki: And arguably that wouldn't even be solely about death because it's how do I feel right now as I'm a witness to this part of your life can be whether they're living or not.

[00:55:34] And I can speak to that because. My dad's mother passed away when he was very young, preteen, and he was the oldest, and one of his brothers passed away before I was born, and toward the end of my dad's life, we were going through a whole lot of bins and stuff like that, and I was able to see [00:56:00] letters from that uncle To my grandmother, and I know very little about that grandmother because there wasn't any record really of her.

[00:56:10] My great aunt was a good friend of hers, and so she has shared a couple of stories with me, and yet, I think my siblings and I were just talking about this in the last couple of months that it's one of these things that if there was that one person you would love to meet, she's sort of the one that we would all like to meet.

[00:56:30] And wouldn't it be amazing if there had been some sort of documentation of her life in some way, shape or form as short as it was. 

[00:56:40] Richard: I think in thinking about everything that we talked about and grieving, especially like if you're experiencing that, Now, I think the biggest thing that I would suggest is really getting your own affairs in order.

[00:56:53] Think about the way that you feel in grief when you have to say goodbye to somebody that you love and then add on top of that [00:57:00] disorganization and worrying about money. So if you are in a situation where you don't have it together, I strongly suggest That you get something written down, get a will, get some life insurance, make it easy, easier on your family, because it's already hard enough that they're losing you make it easier on them so that they don't have to worry about losing big mama's house or whatever it might be.

[00:57:24] The other thing I would say is that if you have older parents or family members. To at least try to sit down with them and talk to them about, you know, estate planning, like, Hey, what would you want? Like, what do you, where do you want stuff to go? Like, what does it look like when you're not here? And even like helping them clean out certain stuff, just because that's some of the hardest thing is going through someone you love stuff and you have to go through every single thing.

[00:57:52] So I was strongly encouraged those things. Like I know after my sister passed, I really. Talk to my parents and like, thinking about it, having this [00:58:00] conversation again, like I want to revisit that conversation to sit down, like, Hey guys, like, do we have all the passwords written down? Like, where is this life insurance?

[00:58:08] Where are the numbers? Where are the policies? Like, who do I need to call? Like, how do we make sure that the mortgage is still paid? Like those things are very important. And yes, it seems morbid, but it's very few things in life that are guaranteed. That is 100 percent certain for everybody. Like nobody escapes death.

[00:58:27] So. I would strongly suggest doing that. 

[00:58:30] Beki: Yeah. And I think when I think about that too, it's also for those who don't necessarily have a support system in place that it's what I call my chosen family, right? It's the people who weren't born with me, but I feel like they're siblings, um, or cousins or whatever you want to call them.

[00:58:49] Right. And I'm, I'm talking more and more with my friends about, are you set up? Are you taken care of? And really [00:59:00] learning the stories about who they are as well and having more of those meaningful conversations and going in depth a little bit more so that they feel seen, but also so that I can see them as, as that whole.

[00:59:15] And then we start talking about. Being an executor. And yeah, it's weird because we think that, you know, we've still got decades left. And at the same time, to the point that we've made a couple of times, you don't know when your day comes. And so being ready when you don't know who to choose, you should probably start thinking about who do you choose, even if it's who do I choose for now.

[00:59:38] You can change it. 

[00:59:40] Shannon: I would agree. I think that for me, just going through this with my grandmother has been quite an experience and she's not even gone. So just having all those hard conversations that no one else wants to have, right? The realistic conversations of what's going to happen. And also the struggle because she is 89 and her memory is [01:00:00] not the same.

[01:00:00] So that's why I am having the conversations with my mom because I'm like, hey, I don't want, I don't want to do this. If you make it to 89, I want your memory and passwords and all those things to be something that you can clearly go through. Cause now it's like, she doesn't remember, you know, a policy from when she was working 40 years ago is not the same as now.

[01:00:21] And so, but I also am valuing the time that I have with her. So I am talking to her about her twenties. Did you go out to the club grams? Like those are the conversations I'm having so that it's not so cut and because I don't want it to be a business. Right. Between me and her. Right. I want her to still be my grandmother, but I also want to make sure that she's taking care of specifically the elderly are the most like targeted group of people.

[01:00:46] And so assets I want to protect, but I also want to have memories of my grandmother where we're laughing and we're joking. And so I'll ask her about her heyday as we're talking about your house and what color you want to wear [01:01:00] and do you want to be buried or cremated? All those things come with also the memories of generations.

[01:01:06] Of information that she has, so I think you could do both lovingly, but I think it will eliminate some of the mourning and grief that happens in death if you're a little bit more prepared, if you can be, because again, I keep saying like you're, you might not be prepared, but I think the conversation should happen and again, this is Some people think that I'm a little bit too direct when it comes to death, but it's who I am.

[01:01:33] Can't change it, so. 

[01:01:35] Beki: Yeah, and they need you more than they know, maybe. Yeah, 

[01:01:38] Richard: yes. Thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember, the world looks different through every lens. Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us.

[01:01:52] Your voice helps us grow and your stories keeps the conversation going. I'm Richard. And on behalf of myself, Becky and Shannon, thanks for [01:02:00] listening until next time.