[00:00:00] Shannon: Seven years ago, my life changed in the most profound way. I became a mother to a beautiful baby boy. And with that came an immense sense of responsibility. My husband and I were now entrusted with this beautiful, precious life. Before becoming a parent, I thought I knew exactly what I what I wanted to do, what kind of mom I would be.

[00:00:23] I had a list of things I swore I would never do. But then reality hit. I quickly realized I had it all wrong. The parenting tactics that I thought would work, the ones my parents used on me, did not apply. Over the past seven years, I've learned, I've grown in ways I never expected. Being a parent isn't about a simple checklist.

[00:00:46] It's about growing alongside your child and doing what works best for you. These past seven years have been a journey of learning how to truly be a parent. Welcome to Unlearning the World through the Looking Glass. [00:01:00] I'm Shannon and I'm joined by Richard and Becky. In this episode we will discuss parenting and drawing lessons from our past generations while looking at mistakes as well as looking to the future.

[00:01:12] Hi guys! I would say this is a near and dear conversation for me, just because I feel like motherhood has encompassed a lot of my life. But looking at parenthood before I became a mom, it was very, um, I would never do this. I would never do that. So, or looking at what happened in my childhood, whether it was good or bad and said, I would never do that.

[00:01:37] What my mom did. I'll never do it. My dad, I'm going to do exactly what my parents did. Is that something? You guys have thought about or reminisced on and like, what are your perspectives of parenting 

[00:01:49] Richard: thing for me? I always wanted to be a father It's funny because women are a lot of times are raised to want to be parents right but not so much for the man But fatherhood is something that I always wanted [00:02:00] to to have and I really waited a long time before Actually even thinking about becoming a parent.

[00:02:10] I was in a long term relationship And when we broke up, I had to kind of face the reality that It might not be in the cards for me to have kids and, you know, I feel like my parents did a great job raising me, but it was a lot of things that I would want to change, right? A lot of things that I would want to do a little bit differently.

[00:02:28] I feel like that is every, every kid's thought when, when they're growing up. It's like, Oh, I wouldn't do my, I wouldn't do my child like this. I wouldn't do my child like that. Now that I have a child coming, the only thing that I can think of right now is just, I don't want to mess up. And one of the things that I've seen, uh, recently is that you got to remember that your parents are just doing the best that they can too.

[00:02:54] And this is probably their first time at it. Right. So I'm kind of preparing not to be [00:03:00] perfect, but also I want to do something that works for my child in the world that we're in now, just because some of the things that I was raised. To believe are a little bit different than the world is now. Just thinking about going to get my college education and coming out and getting that great job and working there for the rest of my life.

[00:03:18] That didn't work out so well. That dream is kind of dead. Like that American dream. So it's like thinking about it before it's like, when I think about it as a kid, it's like, of course I'm going to raise my child and they're going to go to college and I'm going to have a college swim for them. And now if my, if my child was graduating from high school right now, I don't know if I could recommend college for them right now.

[00:03:42] And cause the world looks way different now than it did, you know, 20, 30 years ago. So it's a lot of. I think, um, I'm prepared to give my parents a lot of apologies and, and the way that they, they did things and me not liking it and me not [00:04:00] understanding what it meant. And then being in their shoes, like seeing what I do and being like, Hey, maybe I was wrong on this.

[00:04:05] Maybe I didn't know it all. Right. So I'm ready for that. And I'm ready for them to be ecstatic because they are so ready to be grandparents. Uh, I just know that life is going to change. And I even just looking at. Going to Germany, like, even being in Germany, going back to the other story I told, like, being out of the country, every decision I make from voting to making sure that I try to work out more, which I've kind of been slacking on, I'm just trying to make sure that I can keep up with my babies.

[00:04:35] Like, it's kind of like, it gives you, like, I mean, being married gives you another thing to live for, right? Yeah. And to live for a certain way, but I think, Not in a way is that once my daughter coming, start to become real, never had anything to live for or to be better for. It doesn't even, it doesn't even equate, like, it's not even something that's quantifiable.

[00:04:59] It's [00:05:00] like, I've never wanted to be so much better for just cause I have my daughter who I have to take care of and who's going to look up to me and I have to be a good example. 

[00:05:07] Beki: Right. Well, she'll be dependent on you where your spouse isn't generally so dependent. There are times when we rely upon a spouse.

[00:05:18] But having a child is a little bit different than that, right? Right. 

[00:05:21] Richard: Yeah, very different. 

[00:05:24] Beki: And, I'm a little different on this one as well because when I was married many, many moons ago, I, um, my husband and I got married believing that we would have children and a couple of years later, we ended up in a series of conversations actually over a couple of years saying, is that what we want?

[00:05:48] Or is this the thing, does this fit? the life that we have right now? Do we see this happening in the future? And so now I'm a fur baby mom. [00:06:00] Um, and I'm an auntie and I'm a great auntie many times over at this point. Um, but I, I never, and I had was told so many times. So many times. Oh, Becky, you'll, you'll regret not being a mom and I, maybe some people do.

[00:06:22] I can't say that I have ever hit a point. where I had a belief that my life was missing something. I think that I would have had a very rich life in a different way if we had chosen to have children, but I don't feel like there's this big hole in my life. I do believe that a lot of that is because of my nieces and nephews who have Kind of fed any nurturing need and quite frankly anyone who has children.

[00:06:54] I apologize. I'm all in your kids I love kids. I just didn't have any 

[00:06:59] Shannon: yeah, [00:07:00] I mean, I think parenting looks different across the board for anybody, right? And you don't have to birth a child to, to be a parent like figure or a parent. And I want to be sensitive because kids come into the world in many different ways.

[00:07:18] Um, but the birthing part. While it comes with its fun times and physical labor and all that stuff, right? I don't want to say that's the easy part, but in, in the grand scheme of things, that's the easy part, right? Because then you have this little life that comes out into the world and you are responsible for this person.

[00:07:41] You're responsible for how they grow, how they see the world, how they show up in the world. And so, um, for me and my husband, it was, we had some conversations. In the beginning, like, Hey, how do we want to discipline our child? What we're going to do? We're never going to let our child sleep in our bed.

[00:07:57] We're never going to do these things. Right. But [00:08:00] when it came to like structuring, how we were going to parent, right. Discipline, what we were, were we going to do a reward system? Um, what worked in our childhood versus what did not. Even as an auntie, like, are you spoiling them? Are you going to spoil your daughter?

[00:08:17] Or are you going to be stern? Like what were your. What are your thoughts about, like, the parenting styles, if we put in quotation marks? I 

[00:08:29] Beki: think I was kind of stern as the auntie, honestly. I, um, might have been a little bit where I was in my life, because I was in, wow, late teens, early twenties. When my nieces and nephews were being born and at the same time at my wedding, they stood up like when other people have their adult friends, right?

[00:08:54] I had my nieces and nephews that came in. That's what my husband and I wanted to do [00:09:00] was celebrate them. And so there was a bit of spoiling. But it was always in this space of there's a limit to that. And I wanted to make sure that they also had a recognition that I was someone that they could talk to about real things and that I wasn't just the one who came and was fun and played and stuff like that.

[00:09:22] We had serious times too. And when they were young, we had some family things that happened that were pretty serious. And that really drew that in. So there was a, a real spectrum of interactions that we had with one another during really formative times for them. My sister and my sister in law, that whole, you know, birth and physical labor part of it.

[00:09:47] There were some things that, that happened with that, that had me a bit more involved. When they were infants. And I think that that really helped with the bonding piece of it, because one of my [00:10:00] nephews, I was up at two o'clock in the morning, rocking him and we're, we're really well bonded. Yeah. 

[00:10:08] Richard: I think, uh, looking at my friends and family who've had kids now before me, and you see how the things, the way that they were raised and the things that their parents did influence the way that they raised their kids, whether it's the exact same or it's the complete opposite.

[00:10:24] Yeah. And I think as an uncle or an aunt, you have the opportunity, like, your parent, your role is different because you're in and out. You're not there 24 7. I know for me already, like, I'm already, like, you know, I'm having, I'm having a girl. So they're like, Oh man, you're going to be a pushover. She's, she's going to have you wrapped around her little pinky finger.

[00:10:45] And it's like, I'm kind of, I'm like, I say no. And then I'd be like, yeah, you know, probably, but to a certain extent, but you know, it's easy to say stuff. It's like. There's so many things in your life that you try to mentally prepare for. So many things in your life that [00:11:00] you say, when this happens, I'm going to do it this way and I'm not going to like, it's just like, I'm going to handle this when like, if I lose somebody, I'm going to be okay, I'm going to be strong.

[00:11:10] And then something like that actually happens. And then you realize that there's no way to possibly really prepare for the emotions and things that you're going to feel. Me as a black man. One of the things that I started to realize really early on when, when my wife was pregnant and we were confirming to be pregnant, because it's like, at a certain extent with the way that the world was going, I was like, maybe I don't want to bring kids into this world right now.

[00:11:35] Yeah. Um, but the thing that I started to realize is that specifically as a black man, cause I feel like culturally as a Christian black male. It's a certain way that we're raised to not to struggle, sacrifice, not necessarily feel. They don't necessarily teach young black boys how to feel all their feelings.

[00:11:58] So a lot of [00:12:00] me over the years have suppressed a lot of the feelings and emotions that I have. And it's like, maybe I'll have them, but they're not as strong, right? Now having a child on the way, it's made me incapable of suppressing feelings. And I feel feelings in a real way. And I'm like, Oh my goodness.

[00:12:20] Like, what is that? And it's like, Oh, I'm actually feeling something. I'm sad or I'm worried. Or it's just like a completely different thing. So it's like, I have no idea how I'm going to be. Uh, I, I know that it's things that I love that my parents raised me, how they raised me as things that I wasn't crazy about.

[00:12:37] But then again, this is a different time. And I think. The adaptability is really going to be the thing that I'm going to see. I'm probably going to be like calling Becky to babysit and I'm going to be calling Shannon for advice and you know, just get a little bit of both, but definitely, um, learning from the people around me and inviting people in to that life.

[00:12:58] But I'm definitely going to be, my wife [00:13:00] sent me a, a tick tock the other day of, it was like somebody was coming to try to touch the baby and it's like. Do you have a wristband? Did you wash your hands? Nope, you can't touch the baby. You put the baby down. 

[00:13:09] Shannon: Yeah. And I 

[00:13:10] Richard: know, and I know in my heart of hearts that I'm gonna be that kind of dad.

[00:13:14] Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. I think Becky says she can see that. That's funny. Yes. So for me, I think There was generationally some stuff that I wanted to keep with me that, that, that instilled in me, right? But I knew that some things I wanted to shift, uh, specifically being, I had a little black boy. And Richard, you mentioned kind of emotions.

[00:13:40] And so I know the turmoil that me and my husband have gone through because, you know, When we have our moments, he shuts down, it is the most infuriating thing. And so we get to the catalyst, right? We eventually get there. It's marriage. Fine. [00:14:00] But I don't, I wanted to equip my, my son to be able to express himself.

[00:14:05] And so very early on, that was something that I committed to. So. I was like, I am not going to tell my son that he can't cry. Like, that's not going to be a thing. I understand there is like a father son. We want him to grow up to be a strong man. Great. Um, but I said, there is no weakness when you cry or you, or you show emotion.

[00:14:29] And so. It also allows someone to be able to show up for you the way you need them to. So my task, even at the young age for my little one was to make sure that he felt what he wanted to feel and was able to communicate that. So not everyone in my family is a fan of that type of, um, parenting, but I also I'm like, There's you guys will never question how he feels there would never be a mistake of [00:15:00] you know, hey, he has boundaries He set them right in a respectful way I'm not teaching my son to be disrespectful or whatever, but I want him to be able to if he's having a moment There's he is seven and can tell you hey, I need a minute.

[00:15:14] I think that's great. Like that's great, too Absolutely I went from a Black 

[00:15:19] Richard: family that sounds wild to like that that's allowed for a seven year old. 

[00:15:23] Shannon: But he's not being disrespectful. He's not yelling, Hey, I'm going to go take, it's like, because it's equivalent to you sending them to timeout for having a temper tantrum because they can't figure out their emotions.

[00:15:37] Right. You're still ostracizing them. It's just a punishment. He's saying, Hey, I need to take a moment. 

[00:15:43] Beki: Right. 

[00:15:44] Shannon: There's no difference other than it's not a punishment. He is saying, Hey, I'm either overstimulated or I'm frustrated or I'm mad. I'm going to go take a minute and he will go on his tablet. He will go draw and figure it out.

[00:15:58] Richard: I think being able to [00:16:00] teach him those emotions and knowing the difference between them. Yeah, I think it's kind of like something I was reading about color and I'll, I'll give them the really short, I'll give it short story short, right? The, the, the thing is, is that in, in literature, everybody wondered why the word blue wasn't used in some of the older literature.

[00:16:20] The, the thing was, is that the word blue hadn't been invented. So one of the things that this program was saying is that if you don't have a word for it and you can't identify it, it's harder to identify the different hues of you blue, unless you can have a name for it and show that it's different. I think many times for a young man, Especially, we're given mad and upset, but we don't necessarily know, like, mad versus anxious, or sad versus depressed, or all the different little emotions that can come in.

[00:16:55] We're usually just clomping into mad. And being able to tell the [00:17:00] difference is very important just because the way that you deal with those emotions are different. 

[00:17:04] Shannon: Yeah. So I think 

[00:17:05] Richard: the way that you're raising your son, like, as a former, you know, Black boy, young, young man, it's very important just because I didn't always know how to deal with certain stuff just because I couldn't identify the emotion.

[00:17:17] I mean, man, way past being a young man now. Yeah. I mean, I'm still relatively young. Yes. But, Yes. But you think about, like, I'm a man, like, I, I'm married, I'm about to be a father, and there's still some emotions that I still struggle with identifying. 

[00:17:33] Beki: There's an exercise that I did once at a conference. They were talking about emotional intelligence.

[00:17:39] And I forget how much time it was. I want to say something like 30 seconds. Write down all of the emotion words, right? And it was interesting because There were a lot of people who came up with like five or six, but then their minds went blank. This was a group of coaches, [00:18:00] like people who talk about emotions and explore emotions all of the time.

[00:18:06] But when, okay, for me, you put me out and do not ever put me into a timer situation where I have to come up with a bunch of words because my mind just goes completely blank and I can come up with nothing. So I think I had all of one, but I think it's one of the things that I mean, I share with my clients every now and then is this emotion meter or emotion wheel where when you're feeling a particular emotion, then you can identify all of these others that are out there.

[00:18:33] When I was a kid, I wasn't necessarily in a place and I was the youngest. And I didn't really have an outlet to express my feelings and my emotions that was always kind of turned off. That spigot was not allowed to be on. And again, mostly a bit of the times. And what ended up happening is all of that was bottled up inside.

[00:18:59] And so when you [00:19:00] talk about the tantrum, I mean, I used to get in trouble in the house so that my mom would send me outside to the barn to go be with my dad. And then I was happy as a lark because out there I could run around and scream outside as much as I wanted to, and it was fine because it was okay for that environment.

[00:19:18] Arguably running around screaming inside the house, I can appreciate my mother did not want me to be doing that, right? And so, but if that's what needs to be released or processed, then that's what needs to be released and processed. And I think raising children to recognize, identify, and deal with emotions.

[00:19:37] Is a powerful opportunity. 

[00:19:41] Shannon: I want a son. And even if I had a daughter that has the emotional intellect now so that they're not struggling with it in adulthood, right? Cause having a child for me, um, I had postpartum anxiety. Which a lot of people don't really talk [00:20:00] about. They blur that with postpartum depression.

[00:20:01] It's not the same last way longer. And so I was like, I need to go to therapy because seeing stuff inside of myself, I wasn't able to, um, be like the parents of my full potential. I had to deal with my own trauma and like insecurities. For myself, because I'm literally looking at this kid that is doing some of the same stuff that I did, uh, when I was a child, like I was told that I had a lot of mouth, haha, I'm on a podcast.

[00:20:31] So, um, and I talk too much in regards to like, I always talk back and my child is very talkative. He will tell you about yourself in a minute. Right. But I had to deal with some of my own stuff. So that I could be a better parent and be able to like, get rid of some of the trauma that I had, whether it be big trauma, little trauma, whatever, to be the best parent.

[00:20:56] And it's, it's been such a [00:21:00] benefit. And it has given me the strength, because he is seven, he gets mad, he will say things that he does not mean. And Richard, you said it earlier, there has been times I've humbled and called my mom and said, I am so sorry. Like, I am so sorry, because I get it now, like, you're coming home from a long day.

[00:21:24] I I tell you all the things I want, want, want. You're tired. You have no energy, but you're still showing up for me. And then you don't give me what I want. And then I say, I hate you. Well, I didn't mean it. So now that it's happened to me, I've like literally had the tools. I'm like, that crushed my soul. My child has already said he hated me.

[00:21:47] So I was like, Hey, all right. That really, like, crushed me. And I remember calling my mom and she was like, Shannon, do you know how many times you said that to me? And like, it doesn't cross your mind some of the things, [00:22:00] as a child, you say to your parents. But, she's like, you said it so many times. She's like, I just, I let it roll off.

[00:22:07] And that generation was very much like, I, I, I literally have had conversations with my parents. So I'm like, I'm so sorry, because the stuff that you guys didn't say and didn't talk about, like, I'm just outwardly saying, Oh my God, I'm struggling with this as a parent today. They just kind of kept pushing to me, which is very like, didn't talk about it.

[00:22:24] Didn't talk about therapy. Didn't say they went to therapy, like just parented and did whatever they were doing with life. So I called my mom like, yeah, He said he hated me for saying no to a toy and I'll never forget what she said. She's like, but he doesn't. So just deal with it. And I was like, What do you mean?

[00:22:42] So now I have a saying every time my child says he hates me. I said, okay, it's fine I love you enough for the both of us today. Well, we'll talk about it tomorrow. So now he'll say but he's like I know mom you love us. You love us both enough for the both of us while you hate I hate you, but it's fine I didn't really mean it.

[00:22:59] I was [00:23:00] just mad. So he's getting into him. Like there's nothing he could say to me That's going to make me stop loving him or say, I hate you too. Like this, that's not going to come out, but it was, I've had a lot of calls with my mom and my dad apologizing. Cause I didn't words are hurtful. 

[00:23:20] Beki: Turns out they can hurt you just like those sticks and stones can.

[00:23:24] Richard: I think it depends on who it's coming from too. 

[00:23:26] Beki: Yeah. 

[00:23:27] Richard: As a, as a future parent who somebody's about to embark in parenthood. You know, I wonder how, you know, past things, because especially in black families, like I can say this just because a lot, a lot of black families like mine, like I got to see my family go from struggling to survive to thriving.

[00:23:53] And I know that luckily because of that, like me and Shannon, we've talked about it before. I know that allowed us to be able [00:24:00] to be set up in a different way. Um, so now we can actually try to thrive. With the lessons that they've learned, that we've learned from them, you know what I mean? Because they were in a different place.

[00:24:11] Like, what kind of, what kind of those lessons have you been able to teach your son from, like, this different perspective? 

[00:24:20] Shannon: So, I think for me, I always want it to be the goal. I know it's going to shift as he gets older, but I always want to be able to be a point of connection, right? A point, like you don't have to ever lie to me.

[00:24:35] I feel like the only shift that I wanted to make was this concept of children are seen and not heard. And there is this line of like, I want to keep something from my mom and my dad. I never wanted, I don't want that. Um, I also. To say that I, what I did want to take from my parents, like, I [00:25:00] don't want to be my child's friend, right?

[00:25:02] I do want you to trust me to be your protector and his protector to nurture and always look out for you, but I'm not your friend. Can you come and tell me everything? Yes. Right. I want there to be a level of trust there that don't ever lie to me. Don't be worse for you. If you lie, that's the only thing I was like, just tell the truth.

[00:25:23] That is the one consistent thing. I will say that I wanted to take from my childhood, right? I wanted there to be an open kind of conversation. There's nothing you can't talk to me about. Um, on the other hand. I was never my mom's friend. We're friends now, but in my adulthood as I'm married with my own kid, but I didn't, I never wanted my son to, to feel like I was his.

[00:25:47] His friend where it's like, we're common because I'm still, I'm, I'm going to say, no, I'm not going to always be in agree, agreeance with you. I'm not going to always do things your way. And there's some things you won't [00:26:00] understand. So I have a greater understanding of that now than I did, obviously when I was under my mom and my dad's roof.

[00:26:07] Um, but I definitely am rebelling against the, you know, you don't talk, no, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. Like those comments where it's like, I don't care. I You do what I say. Not that I do. I have said that and I regretted it when I said it. 'cause I sounded like my mom. But , it just falls out sometimes.

[00:26:29] It just falls out out. It's very natural. It does. Um, yes. But I wanted it to be a thing of always come to me. I'm gonna always protect you. I'll always look out for you, but. The thing I wanted to get away from from my childhood lessons and like trauma is kids need to be quiet because I feel like that's how a lot of trauma happens when kids are quiet, right?

[00:26:49] And they don't have someone to come to. Also, just this is my own personal experience. I was very protective of my [00:27:00] child before. So if he could not speak, there was very limited access to my kids. including family, right? Because I wanted to be able to know that my kid was safe and that he was protected at all times.

[00:27:13] So I, I literally just think that was something my mom taught me. She was like, you know, people could present themselves in a way that is not harmful to your child, but they'll be harmful. And that includes I'm not just talking about like physical abuse, but also verbal, right? You want more people that just want to suck Your kids give good energy.

[00:27:37] They're pure. They're innocent. And so I really try to keep and I'm trying to keep my kid a kid for as long as possible. So that is also being very cognizant, which I don't necessarily think back in the day, that was a thought in the, in the realm that I'm thinking, but like cognizant of who's around him.

[00:27:57] and why they're around him. 

[00:27:59] Beki: [00:28:00] Yeah. The other thing, kind of going back to what you were saying too about being seen and not heard, what a mixed message, right? Right. Like, don't talk, don't say anything, but, you know, share with me all of the things that I'm asking you about. And what confusion there must be in that small, not quite fully developed brain that's saying, well, you want me to speak and you want me to speak.

[00:28:25] Stop speaking. Like, how am I supposed to know which I'm supposed to be when? I, I do remember my teenage years, my dad was home because he was full time farming at that point in time, and I was in the barn with him quite a bit. And, It turns out there are very few secrets in a barn, because when you're, when you're sitting there milking a cow, well not sitting, I was never sitting milking a cow, but when we were doing that, you could have some pretty awkward conversations, because you didn't have to look at each other, and I think that that is Something [00:29:00] that really stuck with me so that when my nieces and nephews might be going through a difficult time, we'd go for a walk.

[00:29:06] We would go do different things so that let's make it an activity that isn't about you talking to me so that it creates this environment. And that's kind of what I hear you talking about is I want my child to feel like he is in an environment where he can say what he needs to say, and it's not going to come back on him in some negative sense.

[00:29:27] Something like if you did something really dangerous or obviously there's discipline, there's disappointment, all of those kinds of things, but that's, it's not like you said before. It's not that I'm going to stop loving you. Right. And I think from a parenting perspective, that's so critically important to make sure that your child, no matter how much trouble they're in, because sometimes, you know, I deserve to be in trouble a lot.

[00:29:57] Yes. And. [00:30:00] But it never even crossed my mind that one of my parents would be like, no, I don't love you. Yeah. They didn't like me much many times, but they loved me throughout the whole thing. 

[00:30:16] Richard: I'm sure that's a universal parenting. I think it is. Yeah. Yeah, I 

[00:30:20] Shannon: would agree. 

[00:30:22] Richard: On another, on another podcast that I used to host, I interviewed a couple, a white couple that had adopted two black kids.

[00:30:32] And I remember listening to their story and hearing about how their perspectives on everything shifted, because for the first time, they had to think about life from a black point of view, and the world that they lived in, and how the world would affect their children that they were responsible for. And now, me about to be a parent.

[00:30:56] a father of a daughter, it really [00:31:00] has started to shift. I mean, I was already really cognitive of the things that women go through, but it's like looking at it from a whole another perspective, knowing that I'm bringing a daughter into this world and it's going to be struggles that my daughter is going to face that I've never had to deal with.

[00:31:18] So that's something that kind of makes me really emotional and thinking about just because it's like, I think intrinsically we want to protect our children. And I mean, even Becky, like you want to, uh, like, I know you want to protect my child and you want to protect your nieces and nephews and your friends, children.

[00:31:36] And, but thinking about it like that, it's like so many different threats that I'm gonna have to think about that I haven't had to think about. And making sure that I prepare my daughter for the world that she's coming into. And, um, it's kind of one of those scary things. Me and me and Shannon, like Shannon talked about it on one of my [00:32:00] episodes of that same podcast, where it's kind of sucks sometimes as raising black children and especially like America today.

[00:32:08] And I was hoping that by the time I had kids that America would be better. We had a black president. Yay. Um, but you start to think about. Raising them and a lot of times our innocence gets taken a lot earlier than other kids just because we have to be told and we have to tell our children things to protect them because we have to prepare them.

[00:32:33] So it's like, one thing is, it's like, you got to be prepared and you can't always be innocent and prepared. And that's one of the biggest struggles of me when I was thinking about possibly bringing kids into this world was. Having to take the innocence, preparing them for this world, and looking at how ugly it was sometimes, so.

[00:32:54] Beki: I guess because I'm more of a villager than I am a parent, [00:33:00] right? And so, one of the things that I think about with that is how many times my friends, I'm really happy, Richard, that you talk about me being able to babysit your daughter, right? Because I, I have found that many of my friends, when they had children, would be like, oh, well, They don't have kids.

[00:33:19] They don't want to do this. They don't want to do that. And there are all of these assumptions. And I think it's really important to recognize that some of us in the village actually are open to participating. I'll go watch your child when they're at sports. There are those reinforcing positive things.

[00:33:36] We've talked some about some of the worrisome elements, and yet there are all of those people who are around us who can reinforce the best within the children who are around us. And I think that many of us are out there. We're not child haters, right? We actually really love children. We enjoy being [00:34:00] around them.

[00:34:00] My husband and I recognize people are apologizing to us all the time about their children. And I'm like, well, they're five, right? Like I don't expect them to sit quietly that that's not a five year old, you know, they they emboat, they have different kinds of things. And That's acceptable and that's reasonable.

[00:34:20] And I think finding those people around you and really including them in your life really take a stronger role in many respects than some of the people that. Or maybe a little bit more shadowy. I remember more of the people who treated me well. Yeah. 

[00:34:41] Richard: Man, the people who treat y'all well, they could be anywhere.

[00:34:43] They could be in y'all family. That is definitely a subject for another story. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:34:50] Beki: Yeah. That one, that one feels like I'm not ready. That's a part 

[00:34:56] Shannon: two, but. Part two. We'll save it. [00:35:00] So what do you think about social media? Like I have my own thing. Cause I feel like this generation, my child, is it going to experience things that I never had?

[00:35:08] Like I had a life before social media. I had a life where I was outside playing without my parents, where I could ride my bike down the street. Uh, you know, and not worried about getting snatched and all these other things. I mean, granted that was still prominent then, but not maybe as frequent now. So for me, social media is very interested.

[00:35:30] There's roadblocks. There's a bunch of. Technologies that are for kids that I think have definitely changed parenting styles. Even when I go to the pediatrician, they're like, it's green time. Like that was never a thing when I was. Yeah, I didn't have any screen time when I was a kid, 

[00:35:50] Beki: like, even, even like the Saturday morning cartoons that everyone else was apparently watching.

[00:35:54] I, I know I watched some, but I don't remember having a lot of screen time. I [00:36:00] lived on a farm. We were outside throwing rocks at each other. I mean, it was just, sometimes literally. And so, she also didn't always like me. Um, And I think, I think it's kind of scary, to be honest, that it's so easy for kids to get access to things that they are not prepared for.

[00:36:22] And, I mean, aside from all the predator stuff that's out there, that is horrifying and terrifying, and the fact that they need to be taught how to handle those kinds of situations is, Just sad. But even the stuff that's so called innocent, I think is, it, it, it's just, I think, Richard, you and I were talking about fairy tales, was it you and me that we were talking about fairy tales?

[00:36:48] Maybe not. There's, there's just so much violence in all of these fairy tales. And I read all of those and that has nothing on what you can find on the internet or on social media. 

[00:36:58] Richard: Speaking of fairy tales, [00:37:00] being someone who pays attention, who's been in marketing for a long time. And I don't, like coincidences and stuff like that doesn't, I don't think it's coincidences.

[00:37:16] Like the older I get, like it's eh, this is not a coincidence. One thing that I think about with social media and media and all of that, like kind of like going back to what you said, Becky, you were talking about. Like the fairy tales, how it was a lot of violence and stuff. Like, I think one of the things, and it's like, you know, I don't want, I don't want to be like one of those crazy parents, like, ah, this is evil and this and that.

[00:37:38] But I start to look at some of the media, like one, and it's like, I know like being black, it's like, it's my, it's like part of my identity is something that I always have to pay attention to. So it was like, I always preface it from that, from that point of view. Like, being Black, I look at the media a little bit different.

[00:37:54] Being in marketing, having studied marketing, like, a good portion of my life, I look at things a [00:38:00] bit different. And I look at the way that Black people are portrayed in movies. And I look at the way that, now even more so, how are women portrayed in movies. And then I look at the messaging behind some of these movies, like, alright, so Frozen seems to be, like, one of those movies that kind of changed everything, but, like, I'm looking at some of these movies Don't get me started.

[00:38:21] Let it, let it snow, Becky. I 

[00:38:24] Beki: was, I was not on the train for that movie. I actually did not like it. I was one of the few people that I was in my circle. You didn't like the catchy 

[00:38:33] Shannon: songs? Because my child sure did. Oh, 

[00:38:37] Beki: well, aside from the catchy songs, there were a couple of other themes in there that, you know, you're twirling and now you're in a really sexy gown that doesn't feel quite age appropriate to me.

[00:38:48] But again, that's my old school. Talking, right? Like I wouldn't have been allowed to wear that dress anywhere. My dad went shopping with me for all those kinds of dresses. Even my mom was like, I'm not fighting [00:39:00] with her about this. And my dad would be like, I'll go. And I was like, Oh, that's so 

[00:39:04] much 

[00:39:04] Beki: worse.

[00:39:07] Richard: But I suppose, but I mean, even that though, you look at media and you look at. We teach our kids things and we teach, not only we teach ourselves things, we teach other people things based off of the media and the things that media normalizes. And I think, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily, but I think it's kind of concerning.

[00:39:26] Like even looking at like the Disney movies where they're coming out with the villains, like the villains, it's like they're humanizing the villains. And I think everybody needs to be humanized, right? And everybody, like, humans are humans, right? But it's kind of concerning when you're releasing that type of thing to a child that might not be able to process the meaning that you're trying to give them behind it.

[00:39:47] So it's like, I have mixed feelings about it. Like, I feel one way about it now, but it's like, when my daughter wants to watch it, it's like, How differently will I feel about it then? Right. 

[00:39:57] Beki: Yeah. Do you need to watch it before she can [00:40:00] watch it? 

[00:40:00] Richard: Exactly. Exactly. And even thinking about being limited, I remember growing up, my mom would only let me listen to gospel music and classical music.

[00:40:10] That's it. And I used to want to listen to jazz because my dad would listen to jazz. And I was like, can I listen to jazz? And she's like, no, I'm like, it ain't even got no words, ma. It don't even have any words. But the thing about it is I didn't get introduced to some, some music, some forms of music until later.

[00:40:29] And I, I don't know if it, It's because of that, but I have a greater appreciation for all different types of music now. It's not just like, I could have easily been like, Oh, I just love hip hop and R& B and I don't listen to anything else. But I listen to a wide breadth of music and I listen to a lot of different things.

[00:40:48] And I don't know how much of that came from not being able to listen to a lot of different things. I don't know if I would respect and love classical music the same way that I appreciate it now. and the, the memories that I [00:41:00] have it tied to going to, um, the Detroit Institute of Art, like having those two things tied together, going to one of the greatest art museums in the world.

[00:41:10] I think it's a, I think for me, like, I think especially like me and my wife, we're just going to really have to think about what's limited. What's like, I didn't have to work. Like, I'm so glad that I didn't have a camera phone with me at all times as a child. Like I would have gotten into so much trouble.

[00:41:25] You know what I mean? Like all the trouble that you could have gotten into shenanigans. that people now have access to. And I'm, and I'm so happy that video games really wasn't as big of a thing when I was a child versus now, just because. I have like such a vivid imagination and I don't know if my imagination would have developed the same way if I wasn't outside playing in the bushes, riding my bike, running around the neighborhood versus playing PlayStation all day or Xbox all day.

[00:41:52] So, you know, I'm very torn and it's like, like, I don't know, like, I almost, like, envy you a little bit, Shannon, because you already [00:42:00] went through some of it. Are you starting to go through it? It's like, I'm starting from zero now. It's just like, yo, like, what? 

[00:42:06] Shannon: I'm still, I'm still with you. And I think I'm like split and I'm torn because And I also feel bad, right, because I, we didn't talk about this, but I'll talk about it for a hot second and then get back to what we were saying.

[00:42:22] But like, I didn't have, I don't have a village, right? My mom still works. So when I was younger, like my grandmother was already retired. Like I was at her house. And so sometimes I feel bad because the tablet. is what I use because I come home and I have stuff to do. And it's like that gets your attention.

[00:42:41] And so part of me as a mom is like mom guilt because I don't want him overexposed to things. Right. I didn't want him to be like all these stats that are coming out in regards to how much screen time the kids actually have. But it is a resource for me. Like and I [00:43:00] take advantage of that. Right. And then in the same light, He's seven, right?

[00:43:07] And I remember being seven. And there again, there's this purity that I want to keep. There's an innocence in him that I still want to keep. But I am not with him every second of the day. He is at school. He he is exposed to other children through activities. And this is not me judging any other parents.

[00:43:26] So please don't take it as such. But like every parent, Does not parent the way that I do. Every parent does not feel like the things that I think are inappropriate for a seven year old as inappropriate. And so, or they don't care either way, like no judgment, but I am really grappling with. Being in areas where I don't have control over what my kid is exposed to.

[00:43:51] And then I have to deal with it. Right. So this whole Roblox thing is a perfect example. I don't really understand it. So I'm not [00:44:00] getting you something that I don't understand. Everybody else plays it. So then it's like, but mom, everyone else. So then it's like, you're the bad guy. And so. Movies, music, it, it can go on.

[00:44:15] So it's a very overwhelming thing in this day because I feel like access has expanded, but access for all kids. Even in the school system, right? Like, I don't know if you guys saw Up. It's one of my favorite movies, but it's not a kid's movie. It's, it's not a kid's movie. It's 

[00:44:31] Richard: a good movie. It's a, it's a sad movie.

[00:44:33] It's horribly sad. My goodness. And 

[00:44:36] Shannon: so, my kid watched it at school. 

[00:44:38] Richard: That might not have been something you wanted to watch, have him watch at school. And, 

[00:44:43] Shannon: and at school, because again, it's like, there is this. I, I don't know what happened, right, because it is a cute movie, but there are so many adult topics in that movie that I'm like, and a lot of those pics, like a lot of those movies are the same where there are [00:45:00] very much 

[00:45:02] Beki: adult movies wrapped in children.

[00:45:05] Correct. Yeah. And 

[00:45:05] Shannon: so, and my kid is very, like, I really don't want to call my kid gifted, but he's very like wise behind his ears. So like the, the concepts that he talks to me about is very like. a lot. And so death is one of those conversations I've had many conversations with that I don't really want to have.

[00:45:25] Okay. In regards to getting so down the rabbit hole. Cause I feel like, again, there's an innocence that I'm trying to keep. So I'm at, I Richard, I'm still there. I'm, I'm in a conundrum of like, I can't protect them from everything. I can't control because I'm not. With him 24 7 and other people are making decisions whether it be by proxy of like their kid.

[00:45:50] Hey There's not even a cooties phase anymore. Sorry Richard to tell you there is no cooties anymore My kid is already talking about girlfriend and boyfriends. [00:46:00] My kid is already talking about someone kissed a girl and I said you are seven What happened to that phase? 

[00:46:09] Beki: Right, you should be running away from each other at recess.

[00:46:12] What are you even doing? He is all about, 

[00:46:14] Shannon: he's like, Mommy, I want to get married. Like you and Daddy. Oh wow. That's sad man. And he's like, okay. He's like, Shrek and true love's kiss. I said, what have I done? 

[00:46:25] There you go. 

[00:46:27] Beki: Though, you know, as you're saying this, you know, what comes to my mind is you said you don't really have a village and what I'm kind of hearing you describe is that you have a village.

[00:46:35] You just didn't get to choose who's in it. 

[00:46:38] Shannon: Correct. You know, when they start going to school, it's like, they're more at school than they're at home, right? And so, I literally had to grapple with that. I can't control how other people parent, right? And I can't control who he becomes friends with, right? I mean, I can control how, how much they hang out, but I can't control if you choose that person to be your [00:47:00] best friend and they are listening to rap and hip hop talking about vulgar things, right?

[00:47:09] And you listen to kids bop. I can't control that. So I am in that. And I think that's going to be an 11 everlasting like issue for me because I feel like I want my kid to be a kid. I don't, I, he does not need to grow up fast. He does not. I know everyone's like in a rush to grow old. I was that person, so I get it, but I want him to be a kid because once that is robbed, it's like life gets harder.

[00:47:38] You can't get it back. So you can't control the atmosphere and I, I, I am struggling with that as a parent. I have control in my house and I'm trying my hardest to build a foundation and him being okay. Not being like everybody else. Yes. That's the only. Well, there's a 

[00:47:55] Beki: bonus just in that, right? Where it's.[00:48:00] 

[00:48:00] You know, I know the famous line that I think many of us got was, well, if they jumped off a bridge, would you just jump in right after them? And I was like, I'm jumping first, right? Like that's, you know, I can totally see that for 

[00:48:11] you, 

[00:48:11] Beki: Becky. Thank you. It's good to be seen. Um, you know, I, I think that there's a whole piece, like I even think about the big debate about how old does your child need to be when they get their own phone, like their own cell phone.

[00:48:29] And I hear eight years old. I hear 13, like I, I hear all of these things. I'm wondering how is a decision like that made? I could tell you 

[00:48:40] Shannon: personally, it's not eight. I mean, but okay. So, and, and this is, this is where, again, it's a nuanced conversation, right? Say there is a divorced couple. Cause I just met a mom the other day.

[00:48:53] She's like, I didn't want my child to have a phone, but we're divorced. Now I can, I can track my child. I could [00:49:00] always be in constant contact with my child. My ex husband got it for him. Okay. Like, I guess that makes sense, but to me, you only going to have that when you're out of the house. Like, how are they utilizing it?

[00:49:11] I personally, I got my phone when I was. 14. I was a freshman in high school. My child has already Man, you got yours before I got mine. I was, I was getting excited for a pager. So pagers went away and it was cell phones. I had a pager. I did not have a pager. My first 

[00:49:27] Beki: cell phone, 

[00:49:27] Shannon: I was 28. Okay. But I'm 

[00:49:30] Beki: old. 

[00:49:31] Richard: I think I was, I was 18.

[00:49:32] I was 17 or 18. I wanted a pager that lit up. 

[00:49:35] Shannon: But at that point in time, it was like, so I got a little Nokia phone freshman year. And that was because I was, you know, doing extracurriculars. I was out of the house, right? Right. And so my child has already asked me. He's like, Oh, but such and such has a phone.

[00:49:48] And I'm like, well, You're going to get it at 14. And, um, he keeps asking, he's like, mommy, I run a lot of phone. I said, okay, 20. And he was like, what I said, I said, you keep asking me, it's [00:50:00] going to go up. But he was like, okay, we'll ask you anymore. 14 is fine. So that is the number I'm sticking to. Cause I thought that at that point in time, I was responsible.

[00:50:09] Like I was responsible enough to have a phone. I was using it in the proper way. The only time I will shift that is if like, he starts to do something where I don't, I don't know where he is at all times, which. At this point, I don't, at seven years old, I know where my kid is. I'm usually with him. So. 

[00:50:27] Richard: Right.

[00:50:28] I see kind of how hard it is, because I remember as a child, that kind of peer pressure to where like, so for instance, I never went trick or treating and it was like, I didn't so mind it because my parents was like, all right, you're not gonna go trick or treating, but here's a bunch of candy. That was the same thing that, that's what I wanted was the candy, but you know, you kind of get ostracized as a kid, like you didn't go trick or treating, you didn't, you didn't do that.

[00:50:54] But it's like, I respected my parents for raising me in the values that they did [00:51:00] the way that they did. Like, would I let my child, well, am I going to let my child go trick or treating? Yeah, probably. I like probably growing up, I probably, I know never, but yeah, I probably would let my 99 percent sure I would, you know, but that's like, that's like one of the differences.

[00:51:14] Like I saw something. A little while ago and they were talking about Sabrina Carpenter and Sabrina Carpenter used to be in the Disney Channel, but she's 25 years old. She's an adult and parents was complaining about her show. So being too sexual, her show is very sexual, but her lyrics, her music is very sexual.

[00:51:34] She's an adult. Like you, you know what we were doing at 25 years old, like, you know what I mean? Like parents forget sometimes. But I think the thing that kind of scares me is that it seemed like it was like so many parents. that weren't paying attention to the things that their kids were ingesting. And they were saying like, Hey, can I go to this concert?

[00:51:53] And it's like, you already let them listen to the music. And then they go to the concert. Then you want to blame the artists. And I seen people on TV having this [00:52:00] debate and, and the guy got on there and it's like, I'm busy. Like, I don't have time to like see. And it's like, like for me, like, I know, like, I don't, I know that I can't predict everything with me having my business and all of that stuff.

[00:52:12] Like, I know That time is going to be of the essence. But one thing is for sure is that I am going to parent, like, I'm going to know what my daughter is listening to. And if she wants to go to a concert, I'm for sure going to take a look at the reviews. I'm going to listen to the music. I'm going to find that time because.

[00:52:30] If you let social media and media and other people parent, like even thinking about if you have a nanny, like how, how much are you really, I think you talked about it before Shannon is that being careful who your kid is around because every person that you bring your kid around is teaching them something.

[00:52:49] It could be good or it could be bad. I remember being young, very young, and this is actually, this was a positive, but it just shows you like, I was in elementary school [00:53:00] and I had a teacher, I was asking a teacher where something was or how to do that. And she was like, did you try to find it on your, on your own first?

[00:53:08] I was like, no. And from that moment on, that caused me to seek knowledge on my own. Before asking anybody in a way that I hadn't seen. And that's like, I was thinking about it like the other day. And then, you know, that was like, that's like 35 years ago. And it stuck in my head so much that like, even now to this day, like that has informed the way.

[00:53:34] that I ask questions. I do my research before. If I ask you a question, then chances are it either one, no, uh, answer, and I just want some confirmation or I've exhausted every resource that I had looking for that answer. And I got it. Yeah. 

[00:53:49] Beki: Yeah. Yeah. And I can think about a variety of situations that were positive role models and some of them who were [00:54:00] probably not appropriate to have around me.

[00:54:02] You know what? I'm going to go with absolutely were not appropriate to have around me. And I don't know that my parents recognized right? Like they weren't intentionally exposing me to people who were inappropriate because they weren't seeing them in the same way. Right? And so I think that there's a whole sensitivity around that kind of interaction where My parents made some assumptions about, well, if you belong to our church or if you are part of our village, right, like then you must be okay.

[00:54:36] And in some respects, right, like you have to be able to have some mainline kinds of assumptions around people. And there were some of those people who acted one way in front of my parents in a different way when they weren't in front of my parents. So they couldn't know unless I told them and that goes back to what you were saying Shannon about it wasn't safe to say anything because it would have been, [00:55:00] well, what did you do?

[00:55:01] Yeah. And that again, I, I don't condemn my parents on that. That was definitely, you know, victim blaming, still a thing, definitely a thing back then. 

[00:55:11] Shannon: Yeah. For me, that, that was a big thing for me. So just talking about a village, right? And this is my mom. So shout out to my mom. This is like probably a little bit trauma ish in regards to generational trauma, but trust no one that's kind of like I had, but that was my anxiety.

[00:55:36] So like my postpartum anxiety had me like thinking. that everybody wanted to harm my child in some way, shape, or form. And so I was very reserved about who was around them. But again, you also need a village, right? You also need to trust people you also need. So why not go to family members or extended family or church members that you feel like would surround you?

[00:55:58] And so [00:56:00] my kind of solution through therapy and stuff was like, Hey, I'm just going to keep it really tight until he can vocalize. Right. To be able to communicate to me. His experience with people, right? Um, I also am not a proponent of making my kid hug, high, high five, anybody. I think that is a this generation thing, because I know like I used to get in trouble.

[00:56:24] As a kid, like, Oh, go give such and such a hug. Like, no, I don't want to. So those are the type of things that I've kind of put into place. But in general, like when it comes to this generation and this society and this parent, like we, we are doing the best we can. So going back to something you said, uh, earlier, Richard, where it's like, I just don't want to mess up.

[00:56:50] Right. But in. In all fairness, I'm sure I'm going to do something wrong, right? I'm sure just like I've gone through [00:57:00] therapy and like gone through all the stuff of like talking to my parents about things that they did that hurt me, that they don't even realize, like, it's not even a thing. I'm sure my kid's going to have the same thing.

[00:57:09] Down the road, but I can do the best that I can do to support him, make sure that he feels protected, make sure he knows that there's always somebody that's in his corner and the world is gonna world . And I, I struggle with that a lot, but I know that I can't change that. Right? I can, I can only build the, the strong foundation within my four walls of my house and make sure that he's a good person and shows up in a way.

[00:57:40] That I feel like is, he's going to be the best human being possible. So, but I definitely, he has a voice and he knows his boundaries. And that was something very important to me because I don't want anybody to take care of, take advantage of my child. Um, or feel like he's not going to come and tell me or his dad something.[00:58:00] 

[00:58:00] So that was something me and my husband really, really wanted to focus on with him. So thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember the world looks different through every lens before you go. We'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us.

[00:58:21] Your voice helps us grow, and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Shannon. On behalf of myself, Richard, and Becky, thanks for listening. Until next time.