[00:00:00] Beki: I remember driving along the belt line with my then boyfriend. I glanced into a car nearby. Instantly, terror seized me as I saw my ex. You know, that ex. The one who had been searching for me, threatening my friends, and all around making life hard for me. They started following us. And we were lucky enough to lose them with few options.

[00:00:25] We started driving the four hours back to my family farm, no packing, no planning, just disappeared to a safe haven until I could find my way back. Resilience is often celebrated, almost universally admired. And many of us strive to cultivate more of it. But do you really want it? The dictionary defines resilience as the capacity to withstand or to recover quickly from difficulties.

[00:00:53] For me, resilience has always been that uneasy companion. It's been there when [00:01:00] I needed it most, but I've never thought of it as a friend. Maybe because I only leaned on it during life's toughest moments. I needed resilience at 19. That time I was stalked by my ex boyfriend. I needed it again every time I took a leap of faith that turned out to be harder than expected.

[00:01:20] More often than I care to admit. While I could instinctively tap into resilience, I struggled to re engage with normalcy afterward. I even found myself unconsciously creating chaos just to feel the familiarity of resilience. Recognizing this destructive cycle forced me to rethink how I approach life and my relationship with the world around me.

[00:01:46] Welcome to Unlearning the World through The Looking Glass, where we explore the moments, Learnings and experiences that changed how we saw the world forever. I'm Becky and I'm joined by Shannon and Richard. In this episode, we'll talk about [00:02:00] our experiences with resilience, the lessons we learned, and our current relationship with it.

[00:02:06] So let's get started. I know I saw myself flipping everything upside down in my life over and over again until I was, you know, exhausted . And then when I started to reflect, I started to notice how disruptive that was. I started to get a bit more introspective about chaos and resilience in my life. I'd always thought of it as an amazing strength, which is true.

[00:02:29] Also true was that I had disruptions all the time that required it, and they were of my own making. That relationship was good and not so good, sometimes. 

[00:02:41] Richard: Whenever I think about marginalized communities, I think resilience is something that you really have to intrinsically have in order to survive.

[00:02:49] Because there's going to be so many things that constantly knock you down. So, the relationship that I've had with resilience is kind of like one that you don't even think about. Every [00:03:00] time something happens, you get back up and you, you do it again. It's just something that I feel like I was taught at a very young age.

[00:03:07] Do not give up. The only thing that beats a fail is a try. So I kind of love resilience because I feel like it's just a part of my DNA. You know, you don't look forward to failing. 

[00:03:17] Yeah. 

[00:03:18] Richard: But I think resilience is that thing that makes you say that failing is okay. Absolutely. Because I'm going to learn something from that fail and I'm gonna get back and I'm gonna do it again and I might hit the wall again, but I'm gonna jump back up and I'm gonna do it again and again and again.

[00:03:32] That's how I get it. 

[00:03:33] Shannon: Yeah. See, I like that. It's like in your DNA. I don't know what it is and maybe this is like the toxic part of me. All right. Or the therapy part of me. But like, I thrive off of proving people wrong or like being the underdog and like surpassing whatever people's assumptions are of me.

[00:03:53] So like, I feel like it's always been in me to be resilient. And I think for me, it started [00:04:00] at maybe middle school. And honestly, I would say before then too, there was a Vice principal that I was hanging out with the wrong crowd and by the wrong crowd. It was just people of color I just want to we weren't really doing much and I remember he said this to me and he was like You're never gonna succeed in life.

[00:04:19] If you keep going the way you're going we're all kids And so I remember in my mind like no Absolutely, not like you're not gonna put that over me and why? Because I'm hanging out with people that look like me because you think that's mis, you know, we're mischievous or whatever the case may be. So I remember my mom saw him when I was in college and it was like a very like prominent moment for me.

[00:04:44] But I think resilience has always been with me, but the toxic part is really just because I like to prove people wrong. So underestimate me all you want. I feel like this has been my life. of being underestimated. And so rising to the occasion or [00:05:00] exceeding people's expectations is usually like where I sit in the majority of things in life.

[00:05:06] But that started at a young age. 

[00:05:08] Beki: Yeah, that that really resonates for me as well, right? Because I don't know that I was born with right? Like I, it doesn't feel like That's the way that it comes into play. I have been underestimated a lot in my life. I would walk into a room and people saw what I looked like.

[00:05:28] They didn't see what was underneath that. And when they didn't believe I could handle something, I'm a little bit like you though. I'm not sure I view it as toxic so much as a, yeah, oh, you don't think I can just watch me. Right. Now I have something to prove. That meant that. I was probably reaching beyond my ability on a pretty regular basis, which meant that I had to kind of keep it quiet that I needed to tap into that resilience and I was kind of hiding it [00:06:00] a little bit because then they're going to find out, right?

[00:06:03] And so I would have to make it look like it was easy when maybe it wasn't as easy as it really was. And I'm wondering how that kind of ties in with some of the stuff that you were talking about. 

[00:06:15] Shannon: Yeah, I think, for me, the thing that pisses me off about that whole thought process is, yes, I would self doubt all the time.

[00:06:24] Because yes, I have a goal to prove you wrong and push through. But in my mind, I'm like, oh, what if they're right? So it's a constant struggle to push through those moments to keep pushing myself. So I feel like the resilient part is the keep pushing, even though you may or may not believe that you're capable because of trauma, because of what people say, because, you know, you're struggling mentally, whatever the case may be.

[00:06:54] I think that's that. Extra push because there's several times where I'm like, I can't do this. I like, I [00:07:00] don't know what I'm doing. I am guessing, but I'm not going to fail and they're not going to see me sweat. So maybe that's, you know, unnecessary stress I put on myself. But that's kind of I've definitely pushed through multiple moments where I'm like, No, that's not.

[00:07:16] I don't know if I can do this, but they're not going to know that. 

[00:07:19] Richard: I kind of think to myself and I wonder at what point does resilience become something else like rebellion or stubbornness. And I kind of think for certain things it's kind of a fine line. So I think one of the things that I try to do is constantly reevaluate myself and also have supreme faith in myself, but also try to realize that I'm not able to do everything.

[00:07:45] The things that I do, I can do really well. And if it's something that I feel like I'm capable of doing after a realistic evaluation, maybe a little bit less than a realistic evaluation. But if it's something that I feel like I can do, I try to continuously [00:08:00] do it. I do not take, it's like, don't, don't take no for an answer.

[00:08:03] With certain things. It's like, I don't take a loss as a, as a final, like if you lose, that does not have to be the end of your story. 

[00:08:10] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:08:10] Richard: That could just be a sub note. And, um. Like, when I think about resilience too, I always go back to stories like, I'm from Detroit, so I think about stories like Big Sean, the rapper, like how he had to be resilient to continuously build on his craft, to be in a point to where he was familiar enough with the people in the radio station, and that he had the confidence enough to go into a radio station, freestyle in front of Kanye West, and get signed by him later on.

[00:08:38] I think about resilience that when Michael Jordan got cut from the basketball team. That he didn't, he didn't go and he didn't stop trying to be a basketball player and say like, Hey, maybe I'll just go work on the farm. He said, I'm going to work all off season to get in the best basketball playing shape of my life and be the best [00:09:00] basketball player.

[00:09:00] One of the greatest players of all time. And one of the things that I worry about, like the newer generations, when I start to think about resilience is that are we giving our children enough space? To learn resilience because like I think Shannon, you said it that we're not born with it. That's not necessarily something that we're born with.

[00:09:21] It's something that we have to learn. So when I see like participation trophies just for being there and we're not keeping the score in the game anymore because, or if you score too much, then that's bad because I don't think we're giving our children the tools that we need to learn to be resilient. I remember being on a softball team.

[00:09:39] And we were good, and we would psych ourselves out, like, when it comes to certain teams, and we end up losing. But I think those experiences showed me how to thrive, because it wasn't like, hey, thanks for being here. Here's your trophy. It was like, it gave me something to strive for. I wanted to be better. I wanted to, to be able to do that thing.

[00:09:59] And [00:10:00] so it's like, you know, that the relationship with Resilience is a complicated thing, because I don't know if everybody always sees. Certain people being resilient, like they might see it as being rebellious, or you being stubborn. But no, like I have a supreme confidence in my, in myself, no matter how hard it is, I'm gonna keep going and I'm gonna keep trying until I accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish or I die.

[00:10:20] It's just, those are just the two options. 

[00:10:22] Beki: I would say that I was definitely viewed as stubborn. I mean, I think my mom would laugh to this very day because She would say I was stubborn and I, I don't know how old I was, but she, she grasped onto this one and teased me about it probably till not so long ago where I was, she would say, you're stubborn.

[00:10:42] And I was like, I'm not stubborn, mom. I'm persistent. Yeah. And it makes me think about what you were talking about, because there is a difference to this day. Yes. It's funny that she brings up these childhood things that I said, because out of the mouth of babes, right? Yeah. But because I also told her she could have [00:11:00] her own opinion, even if she was wrong.

[00:11:01] That one has also lived. And so it becomes this whole idea, though, of words matter in these situations. And I wasn't being stubborn because I wasn't. doing it just to resist. I was doing it persistently because I was working toward a particular goal. And to me, that's where resilience is actually born. I, I didn't play a lot of sports formally, but I played a lot of sports with family and all of that.

[00:11:33] There were no trophies then either. And I, I think that there were, a lot of ways that just through life, like your friends disappoint you and you have to be resilient. Your family disappoints you and you have to be resilient in those moments. And I appreciate when people talk about the trophies and all of those pieces, but that doesn't eliminate all of the [00:12:00] hardships and the conflicts that we have.

[00:12:01] It just eases one of those pieces. I don't take a strong stance on that topic, but I do. think that they still are encountering some of the challenges that would prompt that resilience to develop and grow? 

[00:12:16] Shannon: Yeah, I think the aspect that also kind of changes because like in my family, stubborn is a good description, right?

[00:12:25] In the workplace, I am the rebel, right? So depending on where I am, they look at my resilience in a different way. And so I think Context of who you're, who you're doing, who you're resilient around really shapes the description that may be attached to you, right? Someone can say she is strong. She's determined.

[00:12:48] She is going to meet her goals always. And then some people are like. If you're in the workplace, she thinks she knows it all. She is talking to him, whatever the [00:13:00] case may be. And so I've been on both sides of the field with that. And since I do have a little one, I do want him to face hardships. I'd rather have it be now because they're smaller, but there are instances where.

[00:13:16] He has gotten trophies and they all got seventh place, everybody got a trophy and he went home and told all of the family like, I, I got a trophy, I won, I had to explain, you're a winner in my eyes, kid, you did great, you did the best you could, you actually competed. So proud, but these are the people that won first, second and third, right?

[00:13:38] Because I also feel like there is a balance because just because you are resilient doesn't mean you're not going to fail. Like you said, Richard, right? Like just because I'm pushing through, Failure is a lesson that can push you to be even more resilient. So I don't think that just because I'm resilient, I will never [00:14:00] fail.

[00:14:00] Like that's, I think that's inevitable, but I think, what do you do when you fail? How do you shift? Do you give up? And I noticed I have to tell my child in this generation that it's okay. We could try again. There's always tomorrow. And so I, I'm trying to get in, get that into him now because it's harder in life when you get more bigger things or bigger failures and you're not prepared for, Hey, it's not going to always go your way, but as long as you did your best, you can dust yourself off and try again.

[00:14:30] And so that's always been my motto. Like I'm not going to always get it right, but I'm definitely going to always push through. I'm always going to try again, especially if it's something that I love and I'm passionate about. 

[00:14:40] Beki: And I think that one of the things that you mentioned there, Shannon, was about how it's viewed differently in the workplace.

[00:14:46] Yeah. And I think about how many times that I would be spinning all the plates, you know, balancing all the priorities, all of that. And people would come and talk to me. [00:15:00] and say, Oh my gosh, how do you do all that? You're, you know, you're so strong, you're able to manage all that. Well, it wasn't strong. I was burning out.

[00:15:10] And it was only later that I started to develop the skills to say, well, sometimes say no, when I could find the way to do that. And in other ways. It just became prioritizing what is the most important plate to support, and if that one falls, then what do we do to clean up the mess and, and put a new plate up, recognizing that that was going to happen all the time.

[00:15:37] And yet I had established this reputation of, I was really strong and I could handle it all, and you know, yay, Becky can do it, just hand it to her. And that was a dangerous place for me to be in that time, because that meant I got all the garbage handed to me. Maybe not all of it. I shouldn't say that, but there was a lot of garbage that was handed to me because I knew [00:16:00] how to clean it up.

[00:16:00] Yeah. But it wasn't the only one who could have done that. So resilience kind of has that other side to it. 

[00:16:07] Richard: I'm really super curious, the perspective that you guys have when, like, cause we've been talking about the workplace now. Yeah. If I'm resilient in the workplace, they see me as persistent. They see me as someone who's a go getter and he doesn't say he doesn't give up.

[00:16:22] He keeps chasing it. How has your two's perspective been on like your resilience when you're trying to get a project done, or you're trying to get your raise or, because sometimes you have to be resilient and going for a position because sometimes they'll say, no, and you got to go for it again, how are you guys seeing in those different positions?

[00:16:40] Because I know it's different. Right. Because they do not treat men and women the same way when it comes to resilience, persistence, or anything like that. They use other words that are more negative, like, like aggression, or rebellious, or problematic, or troublesome. So I don't know. One 

[00:16:55] Beki: that starts with a B.

[00:16:56] Yeah. Oh, yeah. 

[00:16:56] Richard: Or that one. Thank you for saying 

[00:16:58] Shannon: that it's not the same for men and women, because [00:17:00] I, that's what I was going, going to say. It's been challenging and sometimes discouraging because I feel like I've had to fight for things that I'm more than capable of doing, not to mention like race conversations where I've had to show and prove more than male counterparts.

[00:17:21] I, since graduating college, have learned and was told in my college seminar class by my, she was great. She was a great mentor, but she talked about sexism in the workplace. And my like capstone class, I literally kept track of. Everything I do, every accomplishment I have, I don't know if men do that to the level that I do, and I have to show and prove that that's, I've done that for every profession I've had, it becomes draining sometimes, but in the same breath.

[00:17:57] It's kind of normalized for me. [00:18:00] 

[00:18:00] Richard: Resilience and your resilience, 

[00:18:02] Shannon: right? And sometimes it will be in the organization values that they love resilience, but it's to their description, like description, what resilience looks like. So sometimes you fit the criteria. Sometimes you are annoying nagging. You need to be happy with what you got.

[00:18:21] You're trying to change too much. You talk too much, whatever the description is. So. No, I'm usually not rewarded for being resilient in the workplace. I'm just gonna say that. 

[00:18:33] Beki: Yeah. Well, and you bring to mind one of the things that I think about too. I've always been a forward thinker. So I absolutely see problems on the horizon, not just the ones that have dropped at my feet.

[00:18:45] And I would get a lot, I don't know why you're borrowing problems from the future because that hasn't happened yet. And I'm like, right, but we're on a path where that is going to happen. And. the [00:19:00] denial of that was really, and then by the time it happens, no one remembers that I raised a flag about it earlier because, oh, that's right.

[00:19:09] Maybe someone wasn't listening. And I will say I have been in some really good organizations where I did get listened to. And I worked with men and women who. We're really respectful about me coming in now. I had to learn how to soften my tone and get some of that stuff going on too, because I would get so frustrated that I wasn't being heard that I would get bitchy, dare I say, and I had a talent for a poison pen and I used it until After using it many times, I realized that it wasn't helpful in any regard.

[00:19:52] And when I refer to that, right, it's like sending that nasty email saying, you know, you're stupid, you're dumb, and you can't see anything in [00:20:00] front of your eyes. So, you know, that's not nice and it's not productive. But one of the things that that makes me think about too, is What were my expectations of other people in those situations as well?

[00:20:12] And my high expectations of them that were not met. And that's what brought out that sometimes mean spiritedness. And sometimes just, we need to have some straight talk here because I don't think you heard what I said.

[00:20:30] Shannon: I would agree. I agree. It's like you're talking to my soul right now. But. Laughter. The tone thing throws me off though, right? In the, in the scope. Of the workplace or outside of the workplace. I have been told about my tone for years. And I went to therapy because I thought my tone was wild and crazy, but [00:21:00] through therapy and just kind of self discovery of self and being more confident with myself, you have to understand the intention behind it.

[00:21:06] So if I work with you, or if I, if you are friends with me, or if you are my family member. You know, my heart, you know, my intention for the most part, usually, cause I either make it clear or it is shown through my actions from other situations. So for me, if I am intentionally saying to you, Hey, I have an issue.

[00:21:27] Hey, I have a concern. Hey, I have an idea. I think we should really do this project. Even if I say it in a way that rubs you the wrong way. If you're my boss, if you're my friend, the intention should be, Hey, maybe I. Maybe I misunderstood. Are you, there's the question that should be happening. It's a two way street.

[00:21:44] So the tone thing is a trigger for me because I'm like, who has the right tone? Anybody could have the wrong tone on the wrong day. So let's just get some clarification. And so for me, I really try to push through in any, any area, any [00:22:00] environment when that becomes a thing. So it can become exhausting, but I also think when you are in these places where there could be some, where you're challenged, whether it be gender.

[00:22:11] Related or not, it is sometimes important to push through. I don't think everyone has the energy to do that, or they could be beaten down so much or whatever the case may be, or tired, or they're just over it. But I think there is value in pushing through. I think there's value in showcasing resilience in those moments when you are being challenged, when you are feeling like you're being taken advantage of pushing through anyway.

[00:22:36] Richard: We talked about. politics before. 

[00:22:39] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:22:39] Richard: I think when you agree with somebody and you have a certain affinity to somebody and you expect something from somebody, then when they say things, you interpret it against your expectations for that person. So when you hear the things like angry black women or like female leaders are always so aggressive.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] When you see them, when you see female leaders do the same thing that male leaders do, instead of saying like, oh, they're really strong, you say like, oh, they're aggressive, just like everybody said that they were. So it's kind of like having that perspective already. You know, like the angry black man perspective.

[00:23:17] So it's like if you get any kind of emotion sometimes, Like, you get seen as, oh, like, oh, see? And the thing that I heard you say is that the thing that really had you kind of fulfilling the stereotype or the narrative was that they weren't listening. So they were actively doing things. To kind of push you to that place where you react in a way that was congruent with the way that they were saying that you were going to act anyway, which is very, it's very odd.

[00:23:48] And I think sometimes the things that we expect kind of relates to our, helps us anticipate what we expect from other people. So if I'm doing [00:24:00] something and I'm working really hard at it and it took me five tries, but I kept at it. And I'm doing something for the company, or I'm doing something for a family member, or a friend.

[00:24:11] When I get it, and I smash it, and it's incredible, like you expect that person to see all of the tries, all of the losses, all of the no's. And a lot of times they don't see it and all they recognize is that one, like, Oh, great job. You did it. You did it relatively easy. It only looked relatively easy because I failed 55 times before 56 with resilience and like working so hard and being the type of person that I am.

[00:24:39] It's like kind of set myself up for disappointment because you kind of want that recognition. All 55 chances, not just number 56. 

[00:24:47] Beki: See how many times I failed to be right one time. One time. But you know what? I 

[00:24:52] Shannon: have a question because you brought up something that. I kind of said already, but we didn't say, do you think that [00:25:00] resilience for the most part goes hand in hand with recognition?

[00:25:03] Like you want people to know what I've overcome. Do you know what I mean? Like some of the things that I have done, like even proving people wrong, I want their recognition that you were wrong. I proved you wrong. And so sometimes I feel like the resilience or that push for you to be more resilient comes from your desire for recognition from whatever, whether it's workplace, whether it's, Hey, I just crushed, I just graduated.

[00:25:33] I just started my business, whatever the case may be. Some of that comes with people saying and acknowledging that I pushed through whatever I pushed through. to get here. And I feel like we said it, but we didn't say it. In my mind, I said it. It's like, I want the accolade. I want the recognition for my resilience.

[00:25:51] You don't always get it though. 

[00:25:54] Richard: I think it's levels to it. I think it's definitely times where that is the reasoning. Like, yes, I'm [00:26:00] doing this to prove you wrong. Yes, I'm doing this so that you can see me. You see me as small, but I'm really big. So I want to show you how big I am. I think it's definitely times like that.

[00:26:08] And so I think resilience comes in multiple flavors. And revenge and proving people wrong is definitely one of those flavors. In my life, especially, I come from a big family and I didn't always feel like I was accepted by my family members. So I always wanted to do something great. So they saw me in a different light.

[00:26:26] And the challenge with that is that a lot of times people see you as how they saw you before. And no matter how much you change, you're always the person that they saw before. So it doesn't matter what I do. So for my own mental health, I'm resilient for myself, and I have low expectations for other people.

[00:26:44] And it's not that I don't have any expectations, but it's like, whatever they do, that's what they do. If they see it, they see it. If they don't, they don't. I do that to keep my mental health up because if you're working really, really hard for people to see it and then nobody's responding, [00:27:00] that's the worst thing.

[00:27:01] If somebody is like really self centered and they're doing something to get your attention and they're doing it and it's like, they got a big sign and a person looks. And then just like looks through you, that's probably the worst thing that you can do to somebody. So it's like, I'm not going to subject myself to that.

[00:27:14] I'm going to really try to be healthy. I'm still going to be resilient because now the way I'm being resilient is I'm doing it because it's something that I want to achieve for myself and not just to be in spite of someone else's and what somebody else said. 

[00:27:27] Beki: Yeah, I guess I kind of feel the same way. I I don't remember a time, even as a kid, that I could rely on external validation, and it's just not how we rolled.

[00:27:39] And so, with that, I always just did it for me. Even the simple things like, and this isn't really resilience, it's probably more persistence, but being able to get through really thick books and being able to, like, get stuck and kind of get bored with the story. To this day, if I start a book, most of them, unless they're [00:28:00] really awful, I have to finish the book.

[00:28:02] Like, there's this whole thing. And that's for me, right? I can't let the book win. And so it, it becomes, I'm going to win in that way. I think when it came to, we were talking before about the workplace. My job changed so much during sort of a decade of my career. My company stayed the same, but my jobs changed.

[00:28:25] My responsibilities changed every six to nine months where I'd have to rebuild relationships or reignite relationships. So with that, looking for that external validation was never going to be successful. What I liked to do though, in terms of that validation was Have them find a respect for the function wasn't necessarily about me.

[00:28:49] It was actually, there can be value in HR. And even now, Hey, there can be value and working with a coach, even when you're a strong leader, right? And so [00:29:00] for me, it's that I'm going to keep on trying, trying to figure out. Yeah. Why isn't this working with this particular person and trying to solve that so that I don't.

[00:29:11] End up in that place where I feel like I failed because I don't define failure as, as falling flat on my face. Failure is when I don't get back up. 

[00:29:19] Richard: Yeah, I definitely would agree with that definition of failure. 

[00:29:22] Beki: It's not over till it's over. No, as a maybe, or not yet. Like you were saying before, Richard. So I was the only one.

[00:29:28] Okay. That's fine. 

[00:29:31] Richard: No, you're not the only one. I mean, I said the same thing. Like I told you, I totally see where you're coming from. And I even have like, Right in my studio, I have something that says like doing something that someone says you couldn't do is the best form of revenge. That used to be my mantra.

[00:29:46] That used to be my thing, but I really did have to take a step back. for myself because it was an unhealthy relationship that I had. It's kind of like always thinking about what somebody else is thinking about 

[00:29:55] me. 

[00:29:56] Richard: Yeah. I had to get to that point where it's like, I really don't care what you think. It's [00:30:00] fine.

[00:30:00] I'm still going to persevere. I'm still going to be resilient. I'm still, if I fall on my face, I'm going to get back up. If you see me fall on my face and you laugh, that's fine. If you, if you laugh at me when I fall on my face and I get up and I get to a very high position and you don't see me, that's fine too, cause I'm not doing it for you, I'm doing it for me now.

[00:30:15] Beki: Yeah. And next time I fall, maybe I'll just grab onto you so you can fall with me. Oh, that's something else. Sorry. That's a different episode. That's 

[00:30:22] completely different. Completely different. I didn't say 

[00:30:25] Beki: that I was a good girl. I just said that, you know, you know, that, that wasn't my, 

[00:30:30] Shannon: my key source of it, right?

[00:30:32] Agree with both of you. I also think you have to do it for yourself, but then my question would be do you think Everybody has that resilience that lays inside of them That really is just one inch away from a hardship that they have to push through or no No, 

[00:30:48] Beki: I I I have met too many people in my community of people who are in concrete and they're not able to [00:31:00] move themselves forward from where they're stuck.

[00:31:03] And I think that for whatever reason, whatever contributing factor, maybe no one was there to teach them how to be resilient. Maybe they tried so many times and they're just like done trying, like their heart won't give them the chance to do that. I've gotten to that place in Things like relationships where someone was unkind to me enough and because of the relationships stuck it out, held strong, you know, tried to just got it out and then all of a sudden it's like, there's this epiphany that says, Oh, that's right.

[00:31:42] I don't actually have to do this anymore and that's freeing. But there are some relationships, I think. And I'm thinking of some of the people in my community where they're just like, seriously, like I, I'm duty bound. I'm obligated to be in [00:32:00] this relationship with this person, or to be in this job and in this function, because it's the only way I can pay the bills.

[00:32:06] I don't, I could never get another job. So they don't see the possibilities for themselves. And so they don't believe that they can stretch and rely on that resilience. It's there. But I feel like it's just covered with so many other stories and beliefs that they don't have access to it. 

[00:32:26] Richard: Yeah. I agree. I believe that everybody has the capacity, you know.

[00:32:31] I think that everybody has the capacity for a lot of different things. And I think the way that people respond to different stimuluses is different. If you've ever done sales and you're not good at sales, When you get a no, it's like you're, you're practically crying, right? It's like, oh man, like I got a no, like it's the end of the world.

[00:32:53] But for those ceasing sales people, when they go out and they get a no, they be like, all right, yes. All right, sweet. Let's go. Cause that [00:33:00] means that no brings me closer to a yes. It goes to that thing also that you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. 

[00:33:07] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:33:07] Richard: So it is times where people get in situations where they have a chance to be resilient.

[00:33:12] They can't activate that resilience until one, they want to change themselves. So I think about it like a lot of people made resolutions to lose weight. So if you lose weight, one thing is, is that, you know, eating healthy sometimes sucks, like legitimately eating healthy sucks, working out kicks your butt, but the only time that you're going to be willing to make a change is that you're tired of being the way that you are more than it sucks to work out and it sucks to eat healthy resilience is the same way.

[00:33:40] It's kind of like one of those things you got to want to, and you got to feel like you would control of your situation as well, if you kind of give, like, put your hands up and say, Because I've seen people like this. They fall into a pit and they were like, yeah, somebody pushed me into this pit. Nobody giving me, nobody held me up.

[00:33:57] And instead of saying like, Oh, maybe I should just get up on my two [00:34:00] legs and get up and try to try to try to avoid the pit. They'd be like, somebody put me here and it's on somebody else to pull me out of it. 

[00:34:06] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:34:06] Richard: And when you think like that, a lot of times, You aren't able to find that resilience to get back up because you're thinking that it's somebody else's responsibility and you're taking the control out of your hand.

[00:34:16] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:34:17] Richard: Sometimes there are situations that you really can't get yourself out of systemic racism and different things like that. Martin Luther King said, how can you tell me to pull myself up on my bootstrap when I'm bootless? Yeah. That's a paraphrase. So, but there are situations where you're in total control of your life, but you put in your control and somebody else, are you putting a responsibility of the control and somebody else.

[00:34:37] And when you do that, you definitely can't be resilient because you don't feel like it's your responsibility to pick yourself up after you fall. 

[00:34:43] Beki: Well, you gave your power to someone else in that moment. Yeah. I guess I'm just thinking too, that just within the last few years of my life, that I heard this phrase of, did it happen to you or did it happen through you?

[00:34:57] And when you feel like it's been done to [00:35:00] you, you feel more like that victim. And when you, feel like it's, and you perceive the same situation as something happening through you, then you see your own agency, you see your own power, and you see how you can take that and learn from it, move through it, whatever it might be.

[00:35:17] And that contributes to something a little bit later on. Because I don't know what you think about this in terms of the relationship between stability and resilience, because I always had this idea, much like that definition, right, of it's when difficulties come that resilience gets tapped into. And this whole idea of trying to keep things as stable as possible, like my trick was always to read the tea leaves for the future, to see what was going to happen and try to set.

[00:35:52] everything to be calm. Well, that's not possible. You can't do that. I don't control all those things. And so then I would end up in all of these [00:36:00] tumultuous situations and then I'd like flip my life over and then have to go back to stability. But now that feels weird. So now I'm going to create that chaos again.

[00:36:10] And I don't know, I, I feel like I still struggle a little bit sometimes with that. being comfortable with the stability because I'm always coming up with ideas for the next thing that is a little bit disruptive anyway. I don't know what the right balance is. 

[00:36:28] Shannon: Yeah, there was an interesting, I don't know what it was, you know, sometimes how the actors do those round tables.

[00:36:34] Yeah. And like they're, they talk to each other and it's like very like inspirational type of thing. I don't know what it's called. There was an interesting one that Tom Hanks was talking and he said, they said, what was like one lesson that you, you learned or whatever the question was. And he said, never get comfortable in the season that you're in.

[00:36:54] It's like when you're, when things are good, things are good. But then they're going to turn bad. [00:37:00] And when things are bad, I'm, I'm paraphrasing when things are bad, they're going to look really low, but then the goods going to happen. And then when things are really steady and he thinks like everything is going to be great, you're going to go up and down.

[00:37:12] So never be so present in the current stability or highs or lows that you just don't understand that it's going to change their seasons. There's a reason for every season. Things are going to go up and down. And I think the. Instability of life, because that's what it is. is really what you should have some type of drive, some type of resilience, because life is not this straight line.

[00:37:45] And so there are going to be hardships. There are going to be moments where you're going to be down that feels like forever. And so if you don't have that something, to push you. I don't know how, again, you're, like you said, they're in [00:38:00] concrete. Like, how are you moving? You're stuck. So for me, it's kind of like fight or flight, right?

[00:38:06] When you have, when something difficult happens, this is why I said, maybe I was bored. I don't know another way just to fight out of it. Like, that's always been my personality, I don't know if it's my sign, I don't know if it's my mom, my dad, but it's just innate. You're not going to be here in this moment forever, it's going to pass.

[00:38:28] What are you going to do to push yourself out of it? Because you can't, for me mentally, I can't sit in a space where I'm in a difficult place. I have to push through. I have to have something to get me to wherever I'm 

[00:38:40] going. 

[00:38:43] Beki: That's interesting because when I, when I hear about pushing through, one of the things that I, I guess I've started doing a lot more is before I start pushing on anything, I'm, I'm just sort of sitting with it and observing it quite a bit and [00:39:00] it doesn't But sometimes I see a path that I wouldn't have seen otherwise, just that I'm gonna, I'm just gonna feel my feels right now.

[00:39:10] And if I'm going to be annoyed, if I'm going to be upset and cry a little bit, then that's what I'm going to do. And then when I let go of some of the peripheral noise, then maybe I don't have to push as hard. Maybe there's a path that shows up that I Maybe wouldn't have seen when I was high affect with all the things going on that I just wouldn't have been able to see that.

[00:39:37] And I mean, I, I talk about that with people a lot. So I know that's why it's something that I try to apply to myself too, because I'm trying to practice what I preach a little bit, you know, I'm not always going to be able to do that, but I think that there's something really to that in terms of. Being able to just sit back with it and think, [00:40:00] well, that was a thing.

[00:40:02] Shannon: Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think that perseverance, resilience, all of that, like the push through doesn't have to be reactive. I'll give an example. I'm not saying this has happened, but like if I got fired or something happened in that case, I would sit with it. Cause it's like, I'm, I'm the person that's going to process.

[00:40:21] Whatever has happened, but in that also that same thing is like, I'm not going to spend two years thinking about that same thing without navigating a way to move forward because the concept is you're not going to sit in this. My therapist gave me a really good little nugget that I've kept with me for all these years.

[00:40:42] She asked me if I had any scars and I was like, yeah. A stage fell on my kneecap. Just, it's a long story, guys. I'm going to have to hear that someday. 

[00:40:53] Beki: Story needs to be told. 

[00:40:55] Shannon: Stage fell on, crunched it. It is very sensitive. And so she was [00:41:00] like, is there a scar? I said, yes. She said, does it hurt you from time to time?

[00:41:04] And I said, yeah, it has its tingles. She's like, does it hurt the same level as it did when you, when the stage fell on it? And I said, no, she's like, that's life. That's relationships. That's triggers. There could be something that. Triggers you similar to that. It doesn't mean you don't feel it. It doesn't mean that you don't have a reaction to it, but the longer the time passes, the more like you don't feel it anymore, it might poke you here and there, but it's never going to be to the same level of pain that you felt on that first impact.

[00:41:32] So that's an argument that is a failure 20 years from now, I can think about some stuff, you know, as a kid, but it's not going to feel like when I'm 16, I thought my life was over. When I failed my driver's test, I was so embarrassed. Now I just tell people, I'm like, yeah, I had to take it three times, guys.

[00:41:53] Sorry. But at that moment, it felt like it was the worst thing I could ever do. I was so disappointed [00:42:00] in myself. So the thing is for me, I do process it. I do sit with it, but I, and it could trigger me down the line. I'm like, Ooh, that was a failure. I didn't really like, but it's never to the magnitude and you sit with it.

[00:42:13] You're like, okay. That was disappointment, or I'm upset, or whatever the case may be, but you still move. I'm not a thing of a stagnant person for very long. I gotta move. 

[00:42:22] Beki: I guess what's standing out to me is the pushing, because that to me symbolizes almost fighting through it. Yeah. And the conflict of it.

[00:42:30] And, And I agree with you that that doesn't need to be this huge battle. It can actually be sort of a nudge, nudge, nudge on a couple of different fronts, and that's still pushing through it. It doesn't have to be the battle royale. And it took me a long time not to go to the mat every single time that I needed to be resilient.

[00:42:54] I mean, I, I was kind of scrappy, right? That's really putting a nice spin on it. And I think that [00:43:00] there's. It's a whole lot that resilience doesn't have to be taking on a fighter stance and it can still be pushing through. 

[00:43:10] Richard: And it's funny that you guys say it like that. Because when I think about resilience, I kind of think of it as like lifting weights.

[00:43:18] It's like one of those things that if you, because when you lift weights, it hurts, literally hurts your body. It is so uncomfortable. Anybody who's ever lifted weights, like seriously, you're going to be sore the next day. Like I did a HIIT workout. Last week. And I'm still sore. So it's one of those things that hurts, but I feel like resilience and that you can, you can throw a persistence in there and I kind of feel like it is like working out because every fail is a lesson, every, every no is a lesson.

[00:43:51] Every single thing that you do is, is giving you aspects that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. There, my dad used to say all the [00:44:00] time, there are more lessons. Fail than it is in a success. Yeah. And I found that to be true so many times, and I talk a lot about perspective and that's like one of the reasons why I'm really happy about this podcast because we talk a lot about perspective and I love perspectives because if you look at something as a loss, depending on what it is, it could be detrimental.

[00:44:25] If you look at stuff as a lesson, take that same event, and you look at it as a lesson instead of a loss. Then it's a lot more hope that comes out of a lesson than it is a loss. Every relationship until I met my wife was, you consider a failure because it didn't end in what it was supposed to end in white marriage and every relationship that I've been in, whether it ended well or not so well, I take it as a lesson because I wouldn't appreciate my wife in the ways that I appreciate my wife now if I hadn't have went through those lessons and learned, this works for [00:45:00] me in a relationship.

[00:45:01] I need to work on this in relationships. I definitely don't want somebody who has that in a relationship. Because there was a time where I was like, yo, I'm good. I'm just going to chill with my dog, live in my house, and work on my business. I don't need to be in a relationship, and I met my wife, so, like, it completely changed everything.

[00:45:22] Like, I know all of us are married, but when you think about, like, when we were dating, it was times where we might've wanted to give up on dating. Oh, I did. Right before I met you. We had the same story. I did too. I said, I'm going to be 

[00:45:34] Shannon: single and have a whole bunch of pets. And then I met my husband. So that's crazy.

[00:45:38] There you go. Give up. And then it comes. 

[00:45:40] Beki: Right? The one time, the one time I accepted failure, all of a sudden victory arose. 

[00:45:47] Richard: You go back to that definition and it talks about. Like, keep, keep continuing to go after toughness. Being, going for a relationship when a relationship end, that's tough. And it takes [00:46:00] courage to get into another relationship, especially if you've been hurt really, really, really bad.

[00:46:05] So, like, if anything, painting that picture, like, that is probably the easiest one. If you lived any kind of life, that is the easiest picture to paint. Like, if you've been with someone who mistreated you, and you went, and you were with somebody else, and you gave somebody else a chance, That is resilience because you could have went in a hole and said, I'm not dating ever again.

[00:46:23] And there's people who have done that. And there's people who to this day are not dating because they had a bad situation. And I think about even some divorced people that I've met over the years, they say, I never get married again. 

[00:46:34] Shannon: Yeah. 

[00:46:35] Richard: Yeah. 

[00:46:36] Shannon: That makes me sad when I hear that. But yeah, 

[00:46:38] Beki: though I do have.

[00:46:39] Friends and family members that I've had conversations were right, but they need to go through an approval process before you're allowed to go too far down this dating path. Um, so there, there is that because, you know, and then this goes beyond relationships. This is what kind of creates some of that drama sometimes is that.

[00:46:58] we have beliefs and [00:47:00] we have systems in our lives that lead us toward some of this drama that comes up, which is usually what a bad relationship is one that is with toxic drama. Right. And so, I mean, one of the things that I can say is that. in the decades that I've been married at this point, I don't fight like I did in those other relationships.

[00:47:23] Like, it's just not that at this point. For me, when I started to realize that resilience was really a signal that I was in a tough time, I started to recognize that maybe I could find ways to create a little bit of space in my life where I didn't need to rely on it as much as I was, that there were some aspects of my life that could just stay.

[00:47:48] calm while all of the ebbs and flows, Shannon, that you were talking about, like the highs and lows and all of that. Yes, that can happen. You know, [00:48:00] at some point I like to have a little bit of a touchstone somewhere that when there's drama on this side that I have something that I can have as a go to that can kind of keep me out of the mess and have me spiraling without any foundation.

[00:48:18] Like you said, Richard, 

[00:48:19] Shannon: it's such an intricate Balance, I think. for the resilience aspect. So say for instance, I'm going to give an example. If I wanted to write a book or someone wanted to write a book and they've tried three times and it's failed. And the next time would have been that time that it did not, they gave up on the third try.

[00:48:42] My heart is like sad for them because it would have just taken just to, to get past the nose and the lessons and resilience. To push through this is I'm I've done a lot of I've done a lot of adages today, but this is my last one[00:49:00] 

[00:49:01] So this is something my pastor says he said the most dreams visions projects Businesses are in a graveyard because people sit on their dreams, their aspirations, their books, all these things, projects, et cetera, until it's too late. And so my heart is maybe not everyone has this fight or whatever to push through, but the resilience was really like, what do you do when hardship no's come?

[00:49:32] And my thought is. Sometimes you're going to have to dig down to get some resilience. I'm not saying this is for everybody and everything and every situation, but those moments where you are self doubting or your mental is telling you, no, the next time could be a yes. So that's kind of even what I say to myself.

[00:49:49] It's like, if I have a vision. I want to see it through. 

[00:49:54] Richard: It kind of makes me think of, and that's, I did make a, another rapper reference, Big Sean earlier, but it makes me think [00:50:00] about Toby and Igwe. Yes, because he said, if I don't make it after a set amount of time, then I gave it a try and I'm going to go back and work at Home Depot or something.

[00:50:09] The caveat that he put on that, that I think that a lot of people miss when they give up on being resilient or give up on a dream. The thing that he said before that is that, I'm going to lock in. I'm going to work at it every week. I'm going to drop a freestyle every single week consistently, and I'm going to see if it takes off then.

[00:50:26] And I think, that a lot of people look for an explosion. 

[00:50:29] Beki: Yeah. 

[00:50:30] Richard: When they really just need consistency. 

[00:50:31] Beki: Yeah. Yeah. If you lack discipline, you'll need a lot of resilience. 

[00:50:36] Richard: Yeah. 

[00:50:36] Beki: And I think that there's a real power in that. I guess, you know, we were talking about before the whole idea of maybe you're born with it.

[00:50:49] I think what I heard us talking about is that we are born with it. We don't always necessarily know how to. tap into it. And so, you know, [00:51:00] sometimes what I think really needs to happen is that we need to shift that perspective and, and really get into that idea of, okay, so that happened. What can I take from it?

[00:51:12] Where does this take me and what can I do with it? And if it's scary, Then it's probably a really cool thing to go chase after when you, when you really think about it. And for me anyway, what I have learned is that, and it comes back to something that Richard, you had said earlier around. You know, you have to, you don't lose the weight until you choose to lose the weight kind of thing.

[00:51:35] And even then it's wicked hard, but it's also, you have to have a reason to make the change. So what is it that is your light at the end of the tunnel? What is it that thing that you want? Because resilience isn't easy. That is something that we just know. And so it takes work and it's hard to be resilient and to find our legs to stand back up after we've been tipped over.

[00:51:59] [00:52:00] Whether by our own making or others. And so we have to have a reason to stand back up. And if you start looking for that, instead of noticing just how sad and difficult it is to be in the situation that you're in, I think that's where you get your motivation and your resilience from. 

[00:52:22] Richard: I'll go back to what I said earlier.

[00:52:24] Like, I definitely think life is always about perspectives. 

[00:52:27] Yeah. 

[00:52:27] Richard: And I think if you are able to shift your perspective, There are definitely times where you are pushed down and people are holding you down and there are situations that you cannot control. The thing that I would say is take a look at the situation you're in, try to get a different view at it and say, is there something that I'm in control of?

[00:52:47] Am I giving up? Waiting for somebody else to save me? Or is there something that I can do? And I think if you take a realistic, honest look at certain situations and things in your life, because I could be [00:53:00] like, yo, like the reason I gained so much weight is because my wife cooks really good and she actually makes me eat food instead of not eating every day when I was a bachelor.

[00:53:09] Then I could blame my wife easily. Or I could say like, hey, Maybe I don't work out as much as I used to work out, and I need to do that a little bit more. So I feel like it's easy to blame people for the reason why you're not doing something, but if you really want to shift and find your resilience, you really need to be honest with yourself.

[00:53:26] Look at the things that you can control and make those changes where possible, because there's so much that you're, you can do if you stay consistent. It doesn't have to be all at once. Just be consistent. Just do a little bit every day. And I think you'll be able to find your resilience. I think also when you think about resilience is it's something that we might know how to define, but it's something really hard to conceptually understand 

[00:53:52] Shannon: and 

[00:53:54] Richard: basically what resilience is.

[00:53:57] It's when the times get tough, you don't give up. 

[00:53:59] Beki: [00:54:00] And I also think that when I think about what resilience is, what you're being, what you're standing up to or from is unique every single time. So the form of that resilience is different each and every single time. But what is the same is that you see something that you don't like and you point yourself in the direction that you want to go.

[00:54:28] Shannon: Yeah, absolutely. And I also think. Resilience can look different. Like you said, in many, based off of who is, who is doing it, right? Because resilience sometimes can be a battle, right? Depending on the circumstance and the situation or resilience could be real quiet, but very like methodic and thought out.

[00:54:52] And push, you know, and being able to get to that end point. So I think when people think of resilience, it's not just like a catch 22 and [00:55:00] everybody's all the same. It's whatever you have to do to overcome the hardship or difficulties you're going through. That is where the resilience comes through.

[00:55:12] Doesn't, it doesn't mean that the how is the same. It just means that the why is pushing you over that difficulty, 

[00:55:19] Beki: you know? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for joining us on this journey. Remember, the world looks different through every lens. Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world?

[00:55:34] Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us. Your voice helps us grow and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Becky, and on behalf of myself, Richard, and Shannon, thanks for listening. Until next time.