[00:00:00] Beki: Your employer is not your family. They may respect your work and value your contributions, but your employer does not love you. It's a business, and when you do not match the needs of the organization, they seek ways to exit you from that organization. You might be thinking, how dare I say this? How bitter I must be to think these things, right?

[00:00:24] Except I'm not. I'm a former HR professional and a solid pragmatist. And I have a big heart for how people feel when they feel pushed out or terminated without respect. I wasn't just any HR professional. I was often the architect in my organization for layoffs, reductions in force, or whatever the fancy term your company uses.

[00:00:47] I made sure to build compassionate communication plans. We wanted employees to maintain dignity no matter how they were impacted. Losing your job is awful, and survivor guilt, it's [00:01:00] real. Every time I did a layoff, part of my soul shriveled up. The first time I notified someone that their position was eliminated was a reckoning for me.

[00:01:10] I'd been told by my leaders to communicate the message, show no emotions of my own, and transition the person to the next. Yeah, it didn't go down that way at all. One person came in, I shared the message dutifully, and they understandably burst into tears. How do I tell my spouse? I stood to transition them to the next person, and they read that as the compassion I was actually feeling.

[00:01:38] They dropped their head on my shoulder and wept. I found myself in a hug and realized it felt right in that moment. Sadly, it seems worse now because this is decades later. Many organizations don't seem to remember that employees are human beings. Maybe some organizations never [00:02:00] noticed that in the first place.

[00:02:01] I know I have a lot to say on this. And I know my co hosts will as well. Welcome to unlearning the world through the looking glass, where we explore the moments, learnings, and experiences that changed how we saw the world forever. I'm Becky and I'm joined by Shannon and Richard. In this episode, we'll share our personal experiences with our loyalty to our employers and maybe when it wasn't, the lessons it's taught us and how we relate to it today.

[00:02:31] Let's get started. Hi everyone. Hi, Becky. So for me, I still believe in dignity and respect in all, and I mean all, employment conversations. When that doesn't happen, I get all fired up about it. No texting to let people go, no turning off access as the indicator that you are no longer welcome to log in. And there was a time when I put my head down and I did what my leaders asked me to do.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] They had experience and I probably wouldn't have shared my views with diplomacy, but I found myself holding back a lot and doing more. of what I was told. And that perspective has shifted over time. And I'm curious about with you, how you have related to these situations. 

[00:03:21] Shannon: So this is quite a topic. When I was in college, I got this nickname, from my friends.

[00:03:29] I used to do, uh, I was a general manager for a student on radio station, and he used to call me boss lady. And I literally was like, at the time, like, it was cute. It didn't really feel like it suited me. I'm like, okay, cool. And then I got into corporate America. And for me, I Always feel like there should have been a work life balance.

[00:03:47] I feel like there should be, you come to work, you do your job, you do your best, you grow, you get, you learn. And that's really not what happens in the grand scheme of things, depending on who you're managed by, depending on the, the [00:04:00] type of leadership you have, whether they believe in, you know, development of their staff or just milking you until you got nothing left.

[00:04:08] And so it was a hard part for me to navigate, but what I learned about myself, which is ironic. Because the boss lady then kicked in. It wasn't just me that I looked at, it was others. So when I saw things like, Hey, you're underpaid for this position because I know what I make or vice versa. You know, having those conversations where it's very taboo, you're not supposed to talk about those things.

[00:04:32] I was like, why? If we're all working together, we're all on the team. We're all trying to get to the end goal together. Why are we be treated? Why are we being treated differently? So I think for my first job after college. It was like that boss lady mode kicked in where I was like, I'm not just looking out for myself.

[00:04:48] Like you need to be good. Did you talk to your boss about that? Did you take, you know, keep track of what you're doing so that you can showcase your growth and what you bring to the company? Unfortunately, you have to do that in a lot of companies. So that [00:05:00] was, My experience, I think I was naive going in thinking that the job always had the best interest for me.

[00:05:07] And I learned very quickly that that was not the case. 

[00:05:11] Beki: Yeah. I'll do good work and they'll promote me. Yeah, yeah. Or they'll see me. Yes. Yeah. And 

[00:05:15] Richard: that was false. 

[00:05:16] Beki: Turns out, no. 

[00:05:18] Richard: I've had a couple of perspective shifts when it comes to, Like work as a family. And I think the first one is that I was in proximity of some managers who partially own some companies.

[00:05:31] I won't say exactly what it is, but it's smaller, smaller franchise company. And one of the things that they always talked about is hiring enough people so that the people that they hire need the company, but the company doesn't need them. So they hired with the fact that they could lay somebody off with no problems.

[00:05:50] And the way that they lay people off is they, they didn't lay you off. They would just cut your hours back and just keep cutting your hours back and keep cutting your hours back. And I was like, [00:06:00] that doesn't, that doesn't quite seem right. Right? Maybe it's just this manager. Maybe it's just this person. I think the thing that really opened up my eyes and really shifted my perspective when it comes to work as a family, because you hear all the time, like talking to HR professionals now.

[00:06:14] If they talk, if you hear somebody say, Hey, come, we're a big, happy family. That is a big red flag. And I totally, I totally get it now. And, uh, I think the big shift really happened for me in 2020 and 2020 during the pandemic, I saw so many people get laid off and I know it was a tough time for everybody, but the way that people got laid off and then I see people get rehired into different positions.

[00:06:39] I was like, at the end of the day, the corporation is going to look out for the corporation and make sure. that it survives. And you really got to think of, and it's like, that's cold in a sense, but in a sense, from a business standpoint, I understand because if your business doesn't survive, then it's way more than the people that you lay off that are getting cut.

[00:06:59] Right? 

[00:06:59] Beki: [00:07:00] Yeah. Though there's a, there's a piece in there that really resonates with me, right? As a business, you need to make sure that there's more money coming in than there is going out. That to me, I get it. Absolutely. This whole game play of we're going to let that person go for whatever reason they decided to let that person go.

[00:07:20] And then, Rename the position and then fill it with someone else. That's not a business decision. That's actually really short sighted and So it's stuff like that that that's where they're not family. The most to me is because Yeah, well, unless it's a really dysfunctional family, right? 

[00:07:43] Richard: Everybody's family.

[00:07:44] Not the same. So when you say we're like family, you got to ask a couple of questions. What kind of family are you? 

[00:07:50] Right. 

[00:07:50] Richard: Right. But I mean, so for me, like, and knowing that I kind of was always like this anyway, but it made me more so and knowing that, that [00:08:00] I have to do what's important for me. I have to focus on me and my family because the company is going to focus on the company.

[00:08:07] Right. Thank you. So, if I'm focused on the company, the company's already focused on the company. I have to focus on myself. So, when I go to work, I give my one, that's not, that's not meaning like, don't give you a hundred percent. Like, I give my hundred percent at work, one hundred percent. I go above and beyond.

[00:08:22] I do everything that I need to do and I'm there, but when my 40 hours hit, when my eight hours for the day hit. Hey guys. All right, everybody have a nice night. I'm out and I'm going to work on my other business. Like, so it's always been that thing. It's been important for me to have that shift to this is work time and this is me time.

[00:08:42] So even if I'm not going to work on my business and I just, I'm going to, Hey, I'm going to sit on the couch and watch TV because I had a long day. I don't feel any guilt for that. Like, and that's not saying that it's sometimes you hit deadlines and you work a little bit longer just to try to hit a deadline.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] I don't agree with doing that all of the time, but in certain situations, I think it's fine. But I always get that time back. It's like, Oh, Hey, like I worked an extra four hours, so I'm going to take a half a day this day. And you know, depending on who you work for, you will know if you have a healthy relationship.

[00:09:15] With your management and when you say like, Hey, I worked extra to make sure I hit the deadline. So I'm taking a half a day Friday. And they'll be like, All right, good. Take your mental health. Do what you need to do. If you have somebody be like, No, why you doing that? Then that's when you really, that's another red flag for you, so.

[00:09:28] Yeah, and 

[00:09:29] Beki: I think that there's a whole piece in there where they might not be family. But there's still a relationship there. 

[00:09:35] Oh yeah. 

[00:09:35] Beki: And there needs to be something at play there. And one of the things that I think is really important there is you do have expectations and you do understand what are they asking of me.

[00:09:49] And if it's too much, then I have a responsibility to be able to say that back. I mean, I work for me now, so I'm the meanest boss I've ever had. Right. And so, um, [00:10:00] it's, but it's interesting to me about. this whole idea of, you know, running myself ragged the way that I did in some of my corporate roles where I felt like, you know, I was going to don the hero cape and go save people.

[00:10:17] And first of all, I kind of look back on some of those as being pretty obnoxious. Those people could have saved themselves just fine. And the other side is that it was really about me wanting to prove something to myself or to other people. It wasn't about the relationship with the employer. 

[00:10:34] Shannon: Yeah, I would say the first It's ironic because I wish I was where you were, Richard, because I feel like I don't clock out and so I came in and Millennials was like the talk now the way that Gen Zers were the talk, Millennials were the talk of how they're coming into the workforce.

[00:10:52] And I had managers or conversations and again, I had some great managers, but I realized, early on that every manager had a manager, especially if you're in [00:11:00] a bigger company. So stuff comes down from the head to you. So, right. And there was just conversations about hiring millennials. And this was said openly to me, you know, how they're lazy, how they're unproductive, how they want to cheat the system, how they want promotions without doing the work.

[00:11:15] And so, Because that was my first job and I'm a millennial. I was like, well, I work hard. Like I, I deserve this. So I put it, it was ingrained in me very early to not complain, right. To keep my head down, do my work, be productive. I grew a whole department on my back. And when it was time for me to get a promotion as promised verbally, it didn't happen.

[00:11:42] So even in a sense, I'm like, I. And I left very gracefully, like, there was a restructuring, we're going to call it that, right? And I left gracefully, but it was really nice to hear they hired external for all managerial positions. And when I left on my last day, [00:12:00] A manager did not give me an exit interview, another manager did, and the staff that I helped train were like, we're going to miss you, thank you so much, da da da da da.

[00:12:10] And I felt, I bought donuts, I left gracefully because I appreciated the people around me that did acknowledge my work, but in the same breath, I had high expectations of people. In places that I shouldn't have just based on verbal conversation. So if anything, it taught me one, you could work as hard as you can, and it's not always going to get you to where you want to go or where you deserve to be.

[00:12:34] And two, just because you have a verbal conversation with someone that you might consider. Friend ish, I don't want to say a friend, but someone that you entrust with your career, get everything documented. And so those are the two, like, perspectives where as I aged, I understood more. But coming in, I was like, I don't want to be that millennial.

[00:12:55] I don't want you to think that I expect a raise, but I do want one over, [00:13:00] I do want to get promoted. I do want to grow. How do, how do you think we're going to get to where you are? That's, isn't that the goal? It's 

[00:13:08] Beki: kind of how it works, 

[00:13:09] Shannon: but I don't 

[00:13:10] Richard: suppose to. I will say that I have always been a person who tries to tell other people this too.

[00:13:19] When you work more than that position has called for, if it's a 40 hour a week position and you work over that, you are setting unrealistic expectations for the company. For your department, for your peers, for people looking at you, because what you're saying is that they're giving you 40 hours to do this and you're taking 60.

[00:13:39] So they're thinking that, hey, I can give you 60 hours worth of stuff. And you could do it in 40 hours, which is really taking 60 business wise. You're thinking that, Oh, like this doesn't take as long as it takes. 

[00:13:50] Beki: Right. Yeah. So 

[00:13:51] Richard: you're hurting yourself. And if your salary, the more hours you work over the hours, you're supposed to be the lower your hourly rate is.

[00:13:59] So you might [00:14:00] be making more money, but if you're working twice as many hours, you really like time is more valuable than the money, honestly. And that's one, that's one perspective shift I had older. I get not to have a child on the way. Right. Money is a tool that you use to do stuff, but at the end of, at the end of everything, you're going to look back like, what did I do with my time?

[00:14:19] Was I at work all the time or did I spend time with my family? And that's just something that's very important to remember. And I think sometimes I have a tendency to be a workaholic. Thank goodness that I have a business of my own that I run and I could be a workaholic with, and it's a little bit different, but being a workaholic for a company that you have no stake in and you have no control over.

[00:14:39] I mean, I've seen people that worked. 24 7, never took vacations, get laid off just like everybody else. 

[00:14:45] Beki: I was, well, I didn't get laid off from that company, but I was the person that for a period of time, I was actually counting hours home instead of hours traveled. And it was, it was [00:15:00] hard on life to be doing that.

[00:15:02] And I had to find a way to stop that. It really was stop accepting. The invitation to travel for something and and figure it out that I could say no, and I was able to do that. I agree with you 100 percent about don't demonstrate that you can do more than what your job requires. If I think about that from an organization's perspective.

[00:15:31] And with that kind of belief that I don't always have, but of they will just take everything that you give. So, right? So they keep on piling up. They might know that it takes you 60 hours to do that work, but they're like, well, you're willing to do it. So what else are you willing to do? I was trying to give them the benefit of 

[00:15:53] Richard: the doubt.

[00:15:54] Beki: Right. And I think many actually get the benefit of the doubt and they don't know. And [00:16:00] then there are those that are like, Well, hey, right? If I can get it done and I don't have to hire someone else because Becky's willing to bleed over this, then why not give it to Becky? Do 

[00:16:12] Shannon: you know what? This is, I think, why I struggle.

[00:16:16] With this, right? Because this whole conversation we're talking about, human to a human, speaking in a workspace. I wouldn't want to take advantage. I wouldn't want to do those things, but it, this is a lesson I've learned several times over, so it's very frustrating. But when I'm speaking to a manager, when I'm speaking to a Speaking to a director or whatever the title of who the ownership of the company.

[00:16:38] I'm not talking to a human at that time. They're looking like, do you know what I'm saying? They're not thinking about it of, Hey, that's taking advantage of this person's time. Hey, this is taking advantage. This is undervaluing this person. This is whatever the case may be. Right? Right. They're not thinking about it from that perspective.

[00:16:53] They're gonna take whatever you offer and give to them for whatever, if you're [00:17:00] underpaid, whatever price you're at. They're not going to go in above and beyond. I, this is where it's frustrating, if I was in that position, again, I don't, I don't know everything, right? I'm not saying bleed your company dry financially, but I could still have a human interaction and know, Hey, I understand you want to grow.

[00:17:17] We can have honest conversations, realistic conversations. When you're going to interview, when you know that your company is going down the poop hole, you probably shouldn't tell people that there's opportunities for growth. You probably shouldn't start them with a lie that you know is not true, that this is open door policy when you want people to be quiet, shut their doors, do their work, and leave and not complain about anything.

[00:17:36] You probably shouldn't say that. 

[00:17:38] Beki: Right. Well, and that's flip side, right? Because when, when people are interviewing, I'm telling people all the time, don't lie when you're interviewing. You have to hold that lie the entire employment relationship. That's also true on the side of the employer. If they're lying to people within their organization or the ones that they're bringing in, they have to hold [00:18:00] that lie.

[00:18:00] Except here's the thing, they have the power, so in a way they don't. So even when you are talking about, you know, we'll get it in writing, Well, it's, and I have seen this, but I, I will say I haven't seen it often, but there is a, an opportunity there for an employer to say, I know we said that then, but it's very different now, and we can't honor that anymore.

[00:18:22] So the paper helps, the paper is not a guarantee. Right. And it's really about building those relationships of trust that aren't familial, but they are trusting relationships where people get each other. It's harder to take advantage of someone when you like the person. 

[00:18:44] Richard: So, like, right now with everything that's going on, you think how important it is to have a balance.

[00:18:49] Yeah. 

[00:18:50] Richard: And the thing is, you can only, like, leave somebody dry so long. I think the really good companies understand that when you give your employees [00:19:00] work life balance, you give them time in between, and you let them go and recharge, what you get from the eight hours that they give. It's going to be better than the 12 hours that they might have gave.

[00:19:12] I know for me, whenever I really start to burn out, and I take a day off, or take a few days off, take a long weekend, and I come back, I'm better at everything. Yeah. Because I'm better when my battery is fully charged than when my battery is on 1 percent and I'm still pushing. 

[00:19:29] Mm hmm. 

[00:19:30] Shannon: Right. I remember I studied abroad in London.

[00:19:33] Europe is very interesting when it comes to their work life balance. I remember it's foreign, it was foreign to me, but I think my perspective on the importance of work life balance changed when I was there. Their lunch breaks were like two hours. And they would be in the park, having tea, having like course courses for lunch, right?

[00:19:55] That wasn't a thing where you're like 30 minutes back on the clock. Productivity is so [00:20:00] much different if you look around the world and how we look at work life balance in America is totally different. And it really is like, how did we get here? Because I, it is a, I'm not gonna lie, because it's been ingrained in me going back to just the millennial and like having to prove myself and show that I can and I'm capable, right?

[00:20:20] And also being a Black woman in corporate America is always a thing too. I have to remind myself, like I got to turn off when I go home, I have to be present for my son. I have to be present for my husband. And when I'm not, someone gets a short end of the stick. It could be me, a short fuse where I'm like, I need to go to sleep.

[00:20:38] I need to, I don't have the time. And so I wish there was a less focus on productivity and making sure the work's done and making sure we hit deadlines and focus on someone being a hundred percent fulfilled in a life because work is not everything. 

[00:20:51] Beki: Yeah. And I think the United States, I mean, even in its.

[00:20:56] It was just this whole idea of, you know, the [00:21:00] American dream and all of these kinds of things of, you know, there's just all this opportunity. All you have to do is work hard to get it. And look, I like it from the beginning. And I think that there is power in that whole entrepreneurial mindset and I can figure things out and I can make magic happen.

[00:21:20] I love that idea. I think it gets distorted though, especially when we start calling a generation lazy. Like I have a hard time with that, right? in what human to human relationship do we actually believe that it is acceptable to call people unkind names? Right. I mean, we learned that in, in kindergarten and maybe even daycare, right?

[00:21:43] Where don't hit Jimmy. Jimmy doesn't like to get hit, right? And so I think that there's, uh, a whole piece where we forget at work that we're working with people. And I love how you talked about that before that it's just, it's, it's [00:22:00] not. necessarily an intentional thing to take advantage. Someone I'm looking at my goal.

[00:22:06] I don't see how it's affecting you. And if you don't tell me or if you don't tell me in a way that I can hear it, then It's not heard, it's not recognized, and I go on my merry way, destroying your life, and I don't even know that that's true. And it's because, in some of those instances, maybe not all, that it's that caution or fear for, standing up and saying, Hey, right, so I put in like 90 hours last week, and I feel like maybe that's not the best thing for me and my family.

[00:22:38] I think that, you know, and look, your family could be you, the fish and the cat, right? Like, it's not like it's a whole complex kind of thing. I don't have children. I still need to go home and recharge. 

[00:22:52] Shannon: Right. So I have a question with that, because do you feel like there's a line with that? Right. With the family [00:23:00] balance?

[00:23:00] Like, do you feel like as management or the company needs to know everything that goes on with your life? Like if I have, you know, family drama or something that is taking up. I don't feel like I need to share that, but I should be able to take a day off. Or maybe that's the wrong way. I don't know. It depends on, I guess, the company, but what are your thoughts about how much to disclose to someone in regards to trying to get that balance with whatever's going on in your life?

[00:23:25] Cause that's realistic with everybody. Everybody goes through stuff. 

[00:23:29] Beki: And I think that there are a couple of different ways that I think about that. I had a friend who was. few months pregnant when she was applying for a position. And because I was or had been in HR, she was like, how do I handle this? I said, don't declare it.

[00:23:48] And I didn't say don't declare it because I thought that the company would, you know, judge her based on that and say, Oh, she's pregnant. We don't want to [00:24:00] hire her, which of course is not legal in the United States. What I said to her was, As soon as you tell them, it's part of your mentality. It's a part of how you think about they may have made the decision.

[00:24:12] If you don't tell them as you're interviewing, then you know that unless they notice and like pat your belly, also rude, then it's like, you know, they didn't necessarily factor that in. She was hired. She came in and she said, okay, so I wanted to let you know that I'm pregnant, I'm due on this date. This is my plan for doing it because of course she was thoughtful about how she wanted to interact with her employer and they never noticed.

[00:24:39] They never noticed that she was pregnant and she was well enough along. And so, you know, stuff like that. I think that there's. a way to handle some of those conversations. For me, I've told a lot of my clients about the caregiving that I gave for my parents because I [00:25:00] wanted them to kind of understand that when I'm like running out of a room with my phone on fire, that, you know, that's, the urgency behind it.

[00:25:08] I don't necessarily think that that's right for everyone. I think it really comes back to what is your relationship with your employer? You might be able to say, look, I've got some family things going on. My schedule is going to be rocky. I commit to X, Y, and Z that I will do in order to make sure that my work stays flowing forward the best that it can.

[00:25:28] I don't feel like full disclosure is necessary. If you feel like you want to do it, just kind of understand how that gets into your own head. 

[00:25:35] Richard: I feel the exact same way that you do, and I think it's great that you said it kind of depends on your relationship with your manager. So my current manager, we have a really tight relationship, and I like to tell them a little bit more just because.

[00:25:49] You know, that's someone that I talked to, a mentor. So I kind of disclosed more. I think the side of it that I really don't like, and this is somebody in [00:26:00] marketing who knows marketing and it's like, I've studied marketing my whole life is that I hate how I, it's almost like sales. It's like, I always have to be promoting myself.

[00:26:10] And my accolades and it's like, I'm always, I always have to brag like, Hey, I did this, this, this, and this. And Hey, I did this and this and this. And it's like, you always constantly have to tell, like when you've done way more than you feel like you should be doing or you're burnt out or you don't like the way the system works or you don't, you, you're going over and above and it's like, you really have to tell everybody what you're doing because that old adage of like, work hard and you'll get promoted.

[00:26:37] It's a lie. 

[00:26:40] Beki: Yeah. There's an, there's an addition to that and tell everyone how awesome they are. 

[00:26:45] Richard: Yes. So it's like, I don't know if, like how true that is for me, it's always been like, I've always been a hard worker and I had to really understand that [00:27:00] it's certain parts, there's certain things that you can do where unless you mess up, people won't notice it.

[00:27:06] Yeah. if you, the better you do with something and the smoother stuff is, then that's the norm and people don't notice it. So they don't know, they don't notice the good, they notice the bad. So I had to learn how to like constantly be tooting my own horn and that's not something that I find enjoyable.

[00:27:24] Yeah. 

[00:27:25] Beki: I would say in defensive organizations that that's part of the business relationship, right? Like they, they have to continue to pay us. They have to continue to ideally give raises. Again, these days, that's a bit harder. It's a different kind of situation. And some are really tight with the pocketbook.

[00:27:45] But, you know, they, they should be, I'm actually going to should on them here. They should be talking about all of the good things that they do for their employees so that their employees recognize why they should stay. Because [00:28:00] employees now can leave. if they want to go. And, and it's not always easy, but it is a choice that's out there.

[00:28:08] And so the businesses should actually be selling themselves to the employees all the time. This is why you should stay with us. So with that, I don't think it's so bad that an employee has to market themselves as an employee to keep, promote, and develop. There are some out there who are not performing very well, and much to your point, Richard, they're, they're not doing well.

[00:28:28] They don't get caught not performing very well for a long time sometimes. Yeah. 

[00:28:32] Richard: I think those are people who get promoted the quickest. 

[00:28:34] Beki: Yes. Because they're selling better. 

[00:28:37] Richard: I guess. I don't know. I mean, because if you don't do anything and then you do a little bit, like if you consistently don't do much, And then all of a sudden you start trying just a little bit.

[00:28:47] Then it's like, Oh, look at how crazy, like you're doing so much better now. 

[00:28:52] Shannon: This, this, I'm not going to lie. I'm on, I'm with Richard on this because I think that there is, there [00:29:00] is part of it that is, if you're really good, this is something I've learned, if you're really good at something and you're successful in that area, I have been told this.

[00:29:10] They want to leave you where you are, where you are most productive. They, even if you have potential to do more, they want to leave you where you're creating the most productivity for that company. And so someone that might be underperforming or. Doing the bare minimum and you are busting your tail.

[00:29:27] Sometimes they stick out more because they can be moved and it's not going to reinvent the wheel. It's not going to cause you to have to fill something that you're doing so well. And so part of me is like, how am I getting punished for being good at what I do? And that's how it's felt. Over the years where it's like, if I'm excelling at what I'm doing, how do I not get the opportunities?

[00:29:52] And then it was the conversation of sometimes it's not what you know. It's who, you know, it's a relationship [00:30:00] based industry, you know, it's all jobs in America, not just like for profit, nonprofit, everything in between. It is a very interest intricate relationship between who, you know, and what, you know, that gets you to excel.

[00:30:14] But I, have been good and efficient at all of my jobs, I will say. And this has been an ongoing thing. So I was trained, this lovely lady that I haven't talked to in years, I was going to ask for my money, for my first, my first boss, because I found out that I was making about seven to eight thousand dollars less than another person who did not have a degree.

[00:30:40] So there was just like some stuff that didn't make sense. Right. And so she was like, this is what you need to do. She's like, don't go in there. Just ask for money, document everything you've done. Put stats so for moving from that point where I literally had to create this whole presentation of how great of a person I am Every company would therefore you cannot hey, can you tell me what you [00:31:00] did last week?

[00:31:00] Yep. Sure can it's documented There will I don't have to look for it figure it out I keep track of my stuff. Even if my boss does I still have it because it was that lesson That has prepared me, but even me doing that has not garnered always promotions or benefits because I'm so good at what I do. So let's just keep it there.

[00:31:21] Beki: Yeah. I often reflect that I have worked for. I mean, not all of them have been amazing, but they've always been at least good, right? And so when I hear about stuff like that, and, and maybe it was my personality with some of the leaders who would say stuff like that, I don't know, that might've tied in. But, um, sort of when that diplomacy started to develop, I got a little pushier because I could.

[00:31:45] And so when someone would say, you know, Oh, well, Shannon's really good at that. We can't afford to move her. I would flip that as an HR professional. I would be flipping that and saying, what if she decides to go? She is a [00:32:00] single point of failure. And how, how much of a business risk is it to have a single point of failure at such a key thing in your business?

[00:32:09] So you better be doubling up and making sure that more than one person knows how to do some of those kinds of things. So that's the management response, responsibility there. But I also say there are folks who get a reputation. I am not suggesting Shannon, you are one, but there are some people in organizations.

[00:32:30] who wanted to make sure that they owned all of the information because it made them indispensable. They won't share their toys with others because if I have all of the toys, then they have to keep me. Which by the way, folks listening, not true. It's not true at all. It's not true at all. And so one of the things as an employee who wants to be able to move up, I mean, it's one of those situations where you have to make sure that other people [00:33:00] understand how to do the things that you do so that you aren't the only valuable person who's there, so that you, you can lift up and go up when you're the only person.

[00:33:11] And again, there are blocks to that. I'm not saying that that's an easy thing, but I think it's really important to make sure that you're not the only person who can do anything. 

[00:33:21] Richard: Right. I think a lot of that comes, kind of stems from The old way of thinking too, in a sense, just because. You remember, like, maybe our parents generation, my parents generation, I should say?

[00:33:34] They got into one job, and that was their job for life. Forever, yes. Like, you just worked that job, you got constant promotions, you retire, you got a pension, and you got, like, a little gold watch. And now, like, these jobs aren't meant to be permanent. Yeah. Like, jobs are not supposed to be forever. So, in a lot of industries, depending on what industry you're in, Being somewhere for a long time is [00:34:00] actually a disadvantage over an advantage because you're missing out on money, opportunity, and growth.

[00:34:05] In graphic design, generally, how you really get movement is that you stay with a place for so long, you build up your portfolio, then you jump to another company at a higher position. And so you have to leave. So that dream of being able to work for one company for your whole life and retire from there, I think that is not practical anymore.

[00:34:28] And I think A lot of us really need to remember that No job is meant to be forever. Do you think your first job, you're going to retire from it? It's not, chances are it's not going to happen anymore. 

[00:34:38] Beki: Right. No. And, and you probably don't want to. I mean, the, and it's funny that you mentioned parents because my, my dad was a bit of an exception to this where he worked as a machinist for a company that had a government contract.

[00:34:53] And it was in the eighties and he kept on getting laid off because there was this expansion decline, expansion decline [00:35:00] during that time of some of the government work he was doing. And I think he was laid off like five times within three years and then they would, you know, call him back and he'd show up.

[00:35:10] And the last time they called him back, he's like, yeah, I'm not coming. You disrupt my life so much. I don't know that he was this polite. You disrupt my life so much that I'm, I'm not coming back anymore. I remember how powerful he felt in that moment because it was actually at a time when I was kind of a teenager and could notice these things that really stuck in my head because what I saw from him was, You always have to pay attention to how people treat you and what is your relationship with people and they don't, they don't get to be unreasonable about what you should be able to expect.

[00:35:51] I think that one of the key things for him too, is that he identified more as a farmer than he did as a machinist. So when he moved. [00:36:00] he really embraced being the farmer. I think that's one of the big challenging things too. Sometimes I, I remember I stayed at work because I didn't know who I was outside of work.

[00:36:11] I didn't have a sense of who I was. Right. And now I have many irons in the fire. There's not one single thing from a work perspective that identifies me. And I probably know myself more as a person in some respects because is more secular focused and I guess I, I wonder from you guys like that separation of identity at work versus elsewhere that.

[00:36:41] You know, we're the same person. It's how we show up might be different. 

[00:36:45] Shannon: Well, that's a whole nother conversation for me personally, as a Black woman in any type of place, because I feel like I have to separate a little bit. So I'm definitely not the person I am with you guys conversationally that I would be [00:37:00] in, in a professional atmosphere for a myriad of reasons.

[00:37:03] But I think for me, the lesson, that lesson that I learned was I was postpartum with my son. There was a restructuring. And all these promises were made before I went out, right, because we knew that it was going to happen. And I came back, I had interviewed, I had done all the things I needed to do, so I was expecting for the growth opportunity, right?

[00:37:27] And I got a call, the, I didn't get one position, there was like three open. I didn't get one, fine. Uh, the second one came in, I interviewed with an external candidate that didn't know anything about anything. This is no shade to her, but didn't know. And Again, this could have been my postpartum, but they basically called and they were like, Hey, we're going to post your lateral position, so you're not going to get a raise.

[00:37:53] We're going to post this. We, everyone should apply that wants to kind of stay or you're going to get laid off. I hadn't applied because I'm, [00:38:00] I just knew I was going to get it right based off of all these conversations. And the, uh, the new hire called me and said, Hey, I think you should apply for the lateral position.

[00:38:11] And I said, Why? The other position hasn't been filled yet. Have you guys made a decision? No, I just think you should apply because we're going to close and we don't want you to miss out on the opportunity, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then that knee jerk and I was like, you know what? I, I've given my time.

[00:38:25] I've given all of that I can. I just had a baby. I said, I'm not going to apply for the position. And she's like, Oh, okay. And two minutes later, I got a call from my manager. She was like, you didn't get it. We're doing this. Now, fast forward. It makes sense why that happened. There was a lot of restructuring.

[00:38:45] Other people needed jobs that had had more tenure than me. But how did you just communicate that we could have had a conversation? But in that moment, I was like, you know what? I'm not, we've had too many conversations. I don't want a lateral position. I've grown. I've developed this. I'm coming back from maternity leave.

[00:38:59] I have a [00:39:00] baby now. I want more. And so the value that I put inside of what I was offering and what I was capable of, my mom thought I was nuts. Because she's like, what do you mean? Like, you're not working. I'm like, well, hey, I got all this time with my son now to be home. Had a nice little severance package.

[00:39:19] Um, and I was like, you know what? This is the right decision. Because at that point, you know, I feel like if I had done that, I would have been in that position for however much longer. And so showing up for yourself, like in any position and knowing your value, I think is really important. And while I can't show up, I don't feel like I can show up ever, and this is sad, sorry, as my authentic self in any corporate space, I will 100 percent always bring forth.

[00:39:48] I know my value. You're never going to take that from me. And at the moment that I feel like you don't know my value, I'm going to move forward. 

[00:39:56] Beki: Right. Right. And I, I think, I mean, there is a [00:40:00] difference from a sense of professionalism that I think comes into play with some of that. The challenge with that, I think, is that some people have a very different version of what professionalism looks like.

[00:40:14] Yeah. I, I don't care what people are wearing, as long as it's not indecent and inappropriate. I, I just really don't care if people wear Sweatpants. I mean, seriously, be comfortable. And that's not just COVID talking. That was me beforehand. And, I'm in them now. And so, I think that it's, it's a powerful thing to kind of, show up, do what you need to do, get the work done.

[00:40:45] And there is a little bit of editing that goes into play there. And I appreciate that, especially for black women, like you're saying, like the, there's a sense of, I can't like just be me and you're right. That is sad. I don't like that for you. [00:41:00] Um, and 

[00:41:02] Richard: so I think for me, it's a little bit different because I am such a big environment person.

[00:41:07] I have to really be comfortable in any environment that I am. And I think over the years, especially specifically one turning point for me was when I grew my hair and I got it locked. Like that gave me a completely different look. And I don't know if I was always comfortable in my own skin, but having this hair attached to my head now made me have to be more comfortable with who I was.

[00:41:30] And my hair was talking to people, certain people at least, before I got to speak to them. So I really had to be comfortable with who I was. And once I was, then I had to be comfortable in my environment. It's so important for me to be in a place to be under leadership where I feel like I can speak my mind and be truthful and authentic.

[00:41:52] Because sometimes it's a problem and people are too afraid to say it's a problem. And if you work for some, if you work for a company and you can't say that it's a [00:42:00] problem when you genuinely feel like it's a problem, I think that is a bigger problem in itself. So, I have cultivated relationships in the places that I've worked to be able to be authentically myself because I do not like being fake.

[00:42:14] And Shannon, I totally understand like holding back part of yourself. And I would say over the years, the part that I hold back and my situation is that I'm a black man. So it's a little bit different for me. The part of me that I hold back has gotten smaller and smaller. You know, I speak several languages.

[00:42:30] So I speak like English and I speak corporate. Great. Mm. So the, the language that I use is different, but I'm saying the same thing. I might not say it in the vernacular that I'll use outside of work, but I'll say it in a way that anybody who knows business will understand that I'm saying like, Hey, this situation is messed up and we need to really do something about it.

[00:42:53] Instead of saying like, Hey, yo, this is messed up man. Like, we need to figure it out. I might be like. Yo, like this is not working. So [00:43:00] I feel like I throw a little bit of my language in there, here and there when it feels appropriate, but just being able to, to, to communicate in a way that my peers in that situation understands why being authentically myself, I used to think code switching was like you not being you, but it's just me using a language that's more common in an environment that I'm in.

[00:43:20] That's how I, that's how I define it. That's how I use it. So that's helped me out a lot. That's helped me be authentic because being able to speak business, like when executives talk and certain stuff, I'll like read between the lines. And I tell some of my coworkers like, all right, I've been studying business my whole life.

[00:43:35] This is what they actually said. Yes. Like in between the lines, it's like, this is about to happen. This is about to happen. This is so having that skill has allowed me to be able to be more authentically myself in all environments. Do you, 

[00:43:49] Shannon: so. I guess for me, there's, it's, it's, it's a conundrum, right?

[00:43:53] Because I feel like I, sometimes it's the [00:44:00] messenger, not the message, right? So I have to understand that not everything that I say is palatable to everybody when I'm, when I'm in my employee, employer type setting, right? And sometimes my passion can come across as angry, right? And so I have to Toe the line between, you know, me being direct and assertive to the being deemed angry.

[00:44:27] Like I'm, there's just been experiences for me that I know that there are certain things that I just might, Oh, I got to go over here to, to deflect from being put into a situation where then I'm the angry black woman in space. But I think for most of the time, like you guys are, I'm on this podcast. I am very much a proactive speaker.

[00:44:46] You're, you're not going to really stifle me, but I know when it's time for me to. move forward and move on. But again, I don't think there will ever be a space unless I created myself in corporate America, right, where I am working [00:45:00] for somebody else. And I would say somebody else, even being a person of the same race as me, that this would not be something that I would kind of Be in the line with this is just like a really extreme example, but something happened.

[00:45:14] This was years ago and this White woman used to say a lot of like crazy things right and she would invade my Boundaries of space. Okay, and so I had to constantly put up stuff and I don't think she really liked me But then someday she would and I remember one day in particular We were talking and it was me and another colleague and she came up and I don't think it was Black History Month.

[00:45:40] So yeah, but she said, you know, I marched for Martin Luther King and you people just have so many and I In that moment, right? Oh, 

[00:45:54] Richard: man down. I 

[00:45:55] Shannon: said, You marched with Martin Luther King. She's [00:46:00] like, yeah, you know, Black people just have such a great history in this country. And I said, and I just, I am with you.

[00:46:08] And I said,

[00:46:12] Okay. 

[00:46:13] Richard: Great history in this country, huh? 

[00:46:15] Shannon: And, Left. Now, I don't know if anybody else would have to. Like, what? What? And in my mind I'm pissed because I can't respond how I wanna respond. And then when I get in my car, at the end of the day, I mean you could respond. I could, but you might 

[00:46:30] Richard: not have a job anymore.

[00:46:31] And then at the would go wrong. 

[00:46:33] Shannon: Right? And then you have all this clever stuff. I had all these clever comebacks when I got in my car, which really pissed me off 'cause I was like, you know when you get like fly, you're like. Wait, what? But that's happened to me, like in many different instances where people say wild, crazy stuff, I get taken back and I'm like, what?

[00:46:50] And then I, and I, so those are the things where it's like, I have to. Told a line. 

[00:46:58] Yeah. In a, in 

[00:46:59] Shannon: a, [00:47:00] and they shouldn't be saying this, but also like the hair, you're talking about hair. You know, people would ask to touch my hair or your hair looks different today. Does it? Great. Like, you know, so depending on who and what I'm around, I do, again, I insert my values.

[00:47:17] I give my boundaries, but people don't always respect that. So it's kind of like, how do you, how do black women respond in those instances is very different. Right. Right. But I like to say I show up 99 percent me, but that 1 percent stays because we don't want that. Because I don't think that that would be well received in many places in corporate.

[00:47:37] Richard: When I say that I'm 100 percent myself, like I'm 100 percent myself, but at the same time, this kind of goes back to the relationships that you have with your manager, right? The relationships that I have with my, my coworkers, I'm going to be 100 percent myself, but it's only going to be levels and, and parts of me that you get anyway, because even if we out of work, you might not get all of me.

[00:47:58] You might not have access to that. [00:48:00] So, you know, you got to figure out what your access is at work. What do you show? It's times where I'll be passionate about a topic, like, especially like, I've served as someone who helps direct culture and people will ask me certain things and it's like, if I'm not myself in those moments, then I'm not given the, the expertise that I've built up in that area.

[00:48:22] appropriately. So I think it's important to remember, it's like, yeah, be yourself, but you don't have to give anybody your whole self. 

[00:48:29] Beki: Well, and I think there's a whole piece to that too, where it's like how you feel in those moments and how you're going to respond. Like I, I, I hear you when it's like, I get to my car and now I know how to respond to that.

[00:48:44] And I think that there's that opportunity to circle back to that person and say, look, I appreciate your intent might've been something else, but this is what I heard when you said you people, that's just not okay for me to have those words come out. It's. And then describing [00:49:00] that. And then on the flip side, it's like, that's actually not your job.

[00:49:04] Right. You know what I mean? Right. It's like, how is it that you, you marched with Martin Luther King and didn't have the appreciation for, you know. How that would be perceived, right? Like there's a there's a gap there, right? And I know that's a gap that's out there a lot. But when I've been in situations where men have maybe made comments to me that they should not have made, and I I have not gotten this a lot in my career, to be fair.

[00:49:34] Um, You know, it was a little bit hold up. What's that? We don't we don't talk that way. That's not that. No, right and and it's that put that limit on but you go educate yourself. I'm not going to educate you here right now. I'm going to tell you it's not okay. And if you ask me a question, I'll probably answer it.

[00:49:55] I'm also going to say, you know what, I, I have work I need to do, and I [00:50:00] just needed you to know that wasn't okay with me. And, and then it's done for me, unless you do it again, in which case we will have bigger problems, right? But I do think about, What can an employer do to make it easier and more comfortable for people to be more of themselves?

[00:50:19] Because some companies are really open to us being 95 to 99 percent ourselves and, and giving access as we choose. And other companies, I mean, Richard, if you'd walked in with your hair locked in some organizations where I have worked, they were really pretty conservative. They would have said, nope. You can't have your hair that way.

[00:50:44] Richard: And I think that's a benefit to me now because I would never want to go somewhere where I'm not welcome to be myself. 

[00:50:49] Beki: Right. 

[00:50:49] Richard: Oh, I'm not welcome like this? Alright, that's cool. Thank you for telling me in advance. You saved us both so much time. Right. Yeah. That's great. 

[00:50:55] Beki: Yeah, I don't need your hate. Yeah. 

[00:50:58] Richard: I think, I think for corporations though, I [00:51:00] think it's really important and the sad thing is that a lot of companies are starting to pull this back because now it's a political speaking point.

[00:51:06] I think D& I is very important because what it's trying to say is that traditionally The viewpoints and the standards that have been put in place in America are coming from a white, male, heterosexual perspective. So, from the DEI stuff that I know and everything that I've learned is really just trying to integrate everybody's culture and points of view and to say like, hey, like, we know this has traditionally been a standard.

[00:51:34] But we want to hear all of your voices and we wanted what we want to understand how it all works together. And I think when you can do that, when you can have a women's history, a month and a woman's health history month and black history month, and All of the different, uh, histories and like, uh, I can't think of all of them at the top of my head.

[00:51:54] There are a lot, yeah. That used to be like a part of my job was to go through all that stuff. When you can make people [00:52:00] feel involved and have places, safe places for people to ask questions that they're ignorant on but they really want to be respectful. That was one of the things that I did when I was part of a DEI initiative is that I did things To make it so that people could respectfully have conversations and ask stuff that they're not aware that, Hey, this might be offensive or, Hey, this is what this holiday means, and this is how you celebrate it appropriately and not try to appropriate it.

[00:52:30] Like, this is actually what it means to be in this part. So I think it's important to be able to have those spaces, but unfortunately right now, at least in the U S it seems like we're trending away from being in a, but I know that. any member of a marginalized community. That woman sounded, it sounded like such a bad situation.

[00:52:48] But in all honesty, she was probably really trying to relate to you. Yes. And the way that it came out was like so terrible. Like this was probably the worst way you could have possibly said that. [00:53:00] So it's so many people that have good intentions and it's scary. Because I'm not a part of all the marginalized communities, right?

[00:53:06] So it's scary when you're going to talk to somebody, a part of a community that you're not familiar with. It's like, how do I be respectful to you, and your community, and what you're going through, knowing that, one, that you are not speaking for everybody in that community, but how do I be respectful and me trying to get more knowledge and not offend you at the same time?

[00:53:24] So, 

[00:53:24] Shannon: uh, here's my thing. And I, the, the lady, I haven't talked to her in over a decade, so But she did apologize. I want to give her that. She did apologize. I don't think she was aware, but she became aware and did apologize for offending me. But I think that we, DEI is in the, in the grand scheme of how you structure and get diversity within any company, right?

[00:53:47] But most companies do have a diversity might not be to the percentage that we would like to see But not even diversity just in like race right or women versus men It's [00:54:00] in belief systems, right? Like if we're talking about elections you have Conversations that don't happen in the in the workspace, but some people voted for Trump Some people voted did not vote for Trump, right?

[00:54:08] You have people that have very different beliefs Or how they grew up or a very like, they might never have been in a city and they think everywhere in the city is ghetto. Right. So just like, that's extreme, but those things exist in every single company. And so I feel like my friend was like, Hey, you should be in HR, but this is, this is my two kind of solutions.

[00:54:30] One is every company should have HR. Some people don't invest. I don't know why it's wild to me. Right. You should have someone that is a safe, neutral ground for any type of issue you have. Right. That would save you a lot of heart headache. And two, I think that you need to pull your staff. You need to ask them because if you are leading a company, you need to know who your staff is.

[00:54:51] And sometimes when you're, if it's a bigger company. Or you don't have the touch points to everybody. You don't necessarily know what people what drives them. It could be [00:55:00] money. It could be celebrations. It could be hey I want more vacation time. How do you know how to reward a company if you don't know your staff?

[00:55:07] And so you need to poll your staff whether you have it through your managers figure out what what do you celebrate? Do you do you like to have time off? Do you have kids? Because some Companies are so big. You don't even know those questions. You don't even know the answers to those. So how can you create an environment if you don't know the staff and you don't know what drives them, you don't know what motivates them?

[00:55:26] That's how you're going to keep retention. That's how you're going to keep your staff motivated to stay. You have to know what they want and then, not to say you're going to give it to them, but at least you know what is the driving force for them being in that place. Some people come, I want to clock in, clock out.

[00:55:39] I don't want to do happy hours. And I don't want to sit in these trainings because that's not what I want to do. And if you have 90 percent of your staff that does that, you need to figure out another way to engage with them. 

[00:55:50] Richard: You need to figure out the right carrot. 

[00:55:51] Beki: Right. Right. Well, and I mean, underneath, it feels like all of the things that we've been talking about.

[00:55:58] It's, you know, hey, [00:56:00] maybe we talk to people. Yes. Maybe we ask questions. Maybe we seek to understand. Go figure, right? Instead of just assume who everyone is and what their belief is that they're just like me. Because that is our default system is that you must be just like me, except for clearly you are not.

[00:56:18] And maybe we need to factor that in a little bit more. And DE& I has been getting kind of a tough ride right now. And honestly, my secret little hope is that they do that whole rebrand thing that we were talking about with the role before, where it's okay, so If D E N I is a word or an acronym that, you know, people are going to just revolt from, we'll keep on doing the work.

[00:56:45] Right. And we just won't call it that, right? Until we get past whatever this is right now. When it's not a popular phrase to use, But you believe in the mission, just do the work. [00:57:00] Just do the work. Right. Because what it's called is changing and evolving all the time anyway. And I don't care if that is, maybe don't mention that your employer is your family, because that's harmful.

[00:57:13] Yes. And then there's the other side of it that is, hey, this is what I expect. And if you're in my customer service group and you need to look a certain way, then make sure that's out there and that people know that because people like Richard want to be able to say yay or nay based on that, right? And it is important for us to be able to do that.

[00:57:34] And I think about it in terms of, I'm not necessarily someone who is known for holding my opinions in. Same. Um, and many would be actually very surprised to know how often I do stay silent. And I actually, people would say, Oh my gosh, you speak your mind. And I'm like, yeah, imagine all the things I don't say.

[00:57:56] And now I've found my voice. And I even, in [00:58:00] some instances, find diplomacy, and I find that that works sometimes. And my real power, your real power, is in that voice. And it's important to me now to speak up, because I have the perspective that if people don't know what I think, if people don't know what my beliefs are, then that's sort of on me, because how can I expect them to know if I didn't speak up?

[00:58:23] And while I'd like people to agree with me, they're not obligated to do that, but I just want them to listen to what's important to me. And maybe I fall into my own bucket, but I don't think that most people are that different from me, that they just want to be seen. 

[00:58:44] Richard: Yeah. I think thinking about everything that we kind of talked about today, it's okay to love your job.

[00:58:50] It's fine. But know that your job is not gonna always love you. Yes. So. The things that you need to take care of more than anything is you need to take care of yourself and [00:59:00] your family. I always say like, no matter how much you love a job, you never really know what's going to happen. Nobody expected 2020 to happen.

[00:59:09] That some jobs that were essential at one point were no longer even reasonable to have in a corporation anymore. And that stuff was the first things that got cut. So I'm always a big proponent of no matter how much you love your job, be ready to go interview somewhere else. Be ready to do something else.

[00:59:25] Be ready to go because the job is going to protect the job. And at the end of the day, you have to protect yourself and you have to protect your family. Yeah. So whatever that looks like, you got to look out for yourself because, trust me, other people are looking out for themselves and that does not always correlate with you.

[00:59:44] Shannon: Well said. Can I just add one last note is the saying of save yourself first. So if you're on a plane, even with your family, you put your mask on first. I think that we are just in a generation where we have to be selfish. It's not a bad thing to be [01:00:00] self preservation is not always a bad thing. And so when you come to work, Give it your best, but just know that that could go away tomorrow.

[01:00:07] That, you know, it's not like blood is thicker than water. So I'm going to stick with this company for the rest of my life. You sometimes have to be selfish and put your priorities and your needs ahead of that. So if you want to start a family and they're not in alignment with whatever values you have at that point in time in life, then you need to figure out how to shift.

[01:00:24] So I think that it is okay to be selfish. Yeah. in a decisions you make when it comes to jobs because they are selfish in what it takes to grow the company and make money for the company. So I think that it should be equal on both sides. You come and you go to work, you do the best that you can do, but you also be selfish with your time and make sure that your priorities are in check.

[01:00:43] Richard: Save yourself first. I love that. 

[01:00:45] Beki: Yeah, absolutely. And, and. And I also think about when we were talking about how important relationships are. So doing great work gets you so far. It's sort of the door tax, if you will. And then the other side of it is cultivating relationships with other people [01:01:00] so that Maybe you don't have to do all your own advertising for that promotion.

[01:01:05] You get other people to advocate for you and you probably go farther that way because who likes the person who's saying I am so amazing, right? And so those relationships can be. So key. So I appreciate you guys talking with me about this today. Thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember, the world looks different through every lens.

[01:01:26] Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us. Your voice helps us grow, and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Becky, and on behalf of myself, Richard, and Shannon, thanks for listening.

[01:01:42] Until next time.