[00:00:00] I can't remember the very moment in my life where in my soul, I knew it was the right thing to forgive. Forgive people who hurt me. Who wronged me in some way. Ironically, forgiving others came easy, but forgiving myself, that was a whole different story. A long story short, I thought they were my friends.

[00:00:21] I thought we created a safe space where I could be honest, share my secrets and struggles. In one of the darkest periods of my life, my so called friends bashed me, weaponized the secrets I shared. My safe space was stripped from me. While I could have exploded, cursed them out, I just removed myself, and over time, I forgave them, and for the first time, I realized that forgiveness was about freeing me, not them.

[00:00:47] It allowed me to move forward like I haven't before. It was at this point I truly understood forgiveness isn't just for others, it's for you. It's about releasing the pain, letting go of what's [00:01:00] holding you back, and when you truly forgive, there's this indescribable freedom that follows. It's a weight lifted, a new kind of peace.

[00:01:10] Welcome to Unlearning the World Through the Looking Glass, where we explore the moments, learnings, and experiences that have changed how we saw the world forever. I'm Shannon and I'm joined by Becky and Richard. In this episode, we'll share our personal experiences with forgiveness, the lessons it's taught us, and how we relate to it today.

[00:01:28] Let's get started. Forgiveness is a powerful yet complex topic that touches on many aspects of the human experience. From emotional healing to relationships, religious beliefs, and personal growth. For today, I think it would be great if we start with the experiences we've had with forgiveness. There's so many times that I've dealt with forgiveness and so many things that I've learned about it over the years.

[00:01:53] I think one of the most abstract times that I've had an experience with forgiveness [00:02:00] was When someone told me that someone had stole my idea and gotten credit for it, I never said anything bad about that person outwardly, but inwardly, I wasn't very nice. So the kind of person I am, I didn't feel great about even thinking about that person in a negative light without at least giving them a chance to talk about it.

[00:02:23] So I went to them and I, at this time I didn't know them that well. And I apologized. And I said, Hey. Somebody told me that you had took my idea and submitted it, and I had did it first. And, you know, I wasn't crazy about that, but I'm sorry for even thinking poorly of you. And they said, Richard, that wasn't, that wasn't me.

[00:02:44] I didn't do it. Whoever told you, told you wrong. It was this person. I was there, but it wasn't me. And from that moment on, we've been very close. But it's one of those things where I'm so happy that I found the strength in myself to forgive somebody that [00:03:00] didn't even really need forgiveness, and actually go get the whole story.

[00:03:04] And I know that's a little bit more complex about what you were talking about, Shannon, but it's like one of those things that If I had held on to it, it would have ate me up and I would have treated that person differently and they never would have deserved it. And then just kind of like you said, I had to go back to myself and be like, forgive yourself.

[00:03:19] Like you made a mistake. You addressed it like you were supposed to. Now you got to let it go. Yeah. I guess I think about it in a similar sort of way where. There's one instance that I'm thinking of. I trusted someone. I trusted what they told me. I trusted the information they shared with me. I trusted that they were my support, that they were my friend.

[00:03:44] And it sort of came to light that I was actually just used as the weapon against someone else. And I had a really hard time letting go of that. I had a really hard time recognizing [00:04:00] that I was complicit. In that because I did believe and I did accept and I got really angry about the information that was being fed to me and eventually I got betrayed.

[00:04:15] And I lost a lot of relationships because of that, because it was sort of I'm going to get what I want, and I'm going to throw Becky down the river, and I'm going to move on forward. And I remember my husband saying to me, a person's a fake friend. A person's not real for you. And boy, that hurt because friendships matter to me and to feel like they used me in that way.

[00:04:44] But then to that earlier point, right? Like I had to forgive me for being willing to fall for that. So I'm a little bit more skeptical now about, well, this is what they're saying about you, or this is what they do, and this is who they are. And I [00:05:00] thought I'd learned that lesson before then, but I realized that And that's not about forgiveness, that's just because Becky doesn't learn, but it really, that other aspect of forgiveness was recognizing that sometimes people aren't who they say they are, and that's them, that's not me.

[00:05:19] I think it's interesting, Becky, I really think we're the same person. Like we've had the same experiences as we. This does seem to be a trend. But in all, it took me like this, that situation I was talking about that happened in my twenties. But prior to that forgiveness for me always was very one sided. I knew it was right to forgive.

[00:05:40] Like I said, like I always knew that it was something I should do, but I always forgave with releasing them. Right. I never released myself. Like it was like, so I would carry the burden. So like, if someone did something wrong to me and I've had a lot of wrongdoings done to me, I always forgave. But it, it, it almost [00:06:00] was like, all right, I forgive you.

[00:06:01] You're, you're welcome back into my life. And it wasn't until that situation where it was like, I don't. Just because I forgave you doesn't allow you re access to me, doesn't bring back the same friendship. And before that, it would, it would be like very toxic where I, like, they would wrong do. I would like, Oh, I'm just going to check in.

[00:06:18] Hey, how you doing? Because that's the person I am. And if I, if you, if you were my friend at any point in time, or we had a relationship of that nature, I care, you know, and so, or I miss certain things, but sometimes you can miss somebody and still know that they are not right for you. And I did not. I didn't know that until it was like, no, I can forgive and like move forward without that person.

[00:06:40] Because forgiveness for me was always like, no, I just forgive them and like, it's okay. But I was still carrying all like, forgive, but don't forget. But I was like, it was eating, like you said, Richard eating me alive. Like they really did that to me. Or if I'm talking to you and you're talking about somebody else and.

[00:06:57] I'm like, what do you say about me behind closed doors? So [00:07:00] it was like never a very stable relationship throughout my entire like teenage years, you know, early twenties, whatever the case may be, but it was always a level of forgiveness, but it was never like freeing to me until that situation. I had a similar situation and, you know, just because you have a perspective shift once doesn't mean that it doesn't happen again and again and again.

[00:07:22] Sometimes it's that exact same perspective shift. I fell out with, I would have called him my best friend at the time. And we fell out over some pettiness and I felt like it was over something that if they really knew me, they knew it wouldn't have even been a thing. And for the longest, I was really, really angry.

[00:07:42] And that anger and unforgiveness caused me. Instead of focusing my attention on growing and healing from that situation, because even, even friendships you have to heal from, instead of growing and healing from that, that anger, it became like the center of my life. [00:08:00] And it's something that I focused on far too often.

[00:08:03] And until I was able to forgive that person without even talking to them. I forgave them for myself, and it made me feel so much freer. And then I could see things, like once you get that forgiveness, it's like putting on glasses when you have a stigmatism or something. You start to see everything more clearer, and it's like, Oh, that situation was really messed up.

[00:08:25] Oh, maybe they weren't the best people for me to be hanging around. Everything makes more sense. But when you have the fog of unforgiveness over your eyes, it's like wearing a mask. You can't fully see the situation. So, it's like one of those things is that I wish them the best, but I never have to see them ever again.

[00:08:44] Yeah, I think I've had a couple of those instances too. And often, I don't think I get so mad if it's over something meaningful. When it's petty and it blows up, it feels like. Hold up, wait, because I [00:09:00] just think about those moments when, boy, this is just a misunderstanding, right? Like, if you actually assumed that I had positive intent, then we wouldn't be in whatever we're in right now.

[00:09:15] And in some instances, I was really grateful that someone had told me how they were feeling about the situation, but we kind of didn't come back from the awkwardness of that moment. And that was really hard. It took me a long time to just recognize whatever we are is not what we were. And I had to really forgive us both for our own, our own roles in it.

[00:09:44] In another situation, Shannon, kind of like what you were talking about, where it's one of those moments of, I just can't believe we're here. And if you knew me, and I think that's a lot of [00:10:00] forgiveness for me, is if you really knew me, you wouldn't believe this about me. And I do think that some of that is myself kind of thinking about what is it that I'm not showing people so that they know my love for them.

[00:10:16] Yeah. That's like a betrayal. Right? We're the same person, Becky. It's official.

[00:10:24] You know, I think a lot of that ends up feeling like a betrayal because. I'm one who always talks a lot about perspective. Obviously this show is about perspectives, but depending on how you see someone, that determines how you perceive their actions. If you know that someone has the best for you, the best intentions, when they do something that you're not even sure about, you don't really panic about it.

[00:10:53] because you know that whatever they're doing, they're doing it with the best intentions for you. I think it's important in [00:11:00] friendships, especially in relationships, when you talk about having a partner, it's so important for me for it to have my partner really know who I am. And whenever you have a friend, especially a close friend, not know you in that way to where they could perceive an action as something that was anything other than good intention.

[00:11:19] It really hurts because you feel like they don't know you and like you said, Becky, it gives you kind of like that identity confusion, like, am I doing something wrong? Because I mean, that situation I was talking about, I really was like, was I not fair in this situation? Is this something I could have did better?

[00:11:33] Like why would they react like this? At the end of the day, it wasn't me and I had to forgive myself. And then, like I said, once I forgave myself, forgave, forgave them. It's like the glasses came on and I could see everything clearer. And I was like, this is not a me thing. Right. So the story that I told earlier, it's ironic because everything you guys are saying, or like the processes that I went through, right.

[00:11:58] Because I, [00:12:00] for the most part spent a lot of time, like trying to figure out what I did, because it really took me by surprise. And it wasn't like they came to me and, and said, Hey, you know, This, this, and this, or, Hey, we're concerned this, this, and this, it was an onslaught of like negativity. And it was, and some of it didn't even come directly from their mouths.

[00:12:23] It was coming from other avenues of information to the point where the opportunity was given by me. To have conversations that never happened for whatever reasons, but there were still outside external conversations happening and for a while. And this was also while I was going through postpartum, I just want to note that, note that, so yeah, like very hard to process my emotions as it is.

[00:12:51] But to deal with that level of chaos, when it comes to friendships, when you're already going through a lot of shifts and [00:13:00] changes was very hard for me to, like, I literally was beating myself. I'm like, what did I do? Like, what, they don't know me. Like, who am I? So it was in therapy that I kind of had to break down, like, First of all, you know who you are, you know you're a good person, you know you didn't do this, this, and this, but I had to tell myself that because the level of kind of betrayal, where it's like I shared my innermost thoughts and those were broadcasted to other people, and I shared personal information, and that was, so it was very like, Alarming to me.

[00:13:31] Cause then it felt like I couldn't trust anybody. So, so I, I had to one, forgive myself, acknowledge any parts that I played. And then I even kind of was like, maybe I misconstrued this information or whatever. I kind of went through the avenues of how could I, because I, I never got the closure. So that's also another thing that you were talking about, Becky.

[00:13:51] Like I never, and Richard, like I never got a conversation. I didn't get to say to them, Hey, I forgive you for this, this, and this. So this had to really be. [00:14:00] Like on myself to process step A, B, C, D, figure out my emotions, what I could have done better in the situation and just say, you know what? I wish you the best.

[00:14:11] Don't like what you did, but I'm moving on. I'm healed. But it also did teach me a lesson. I don't know if this is, I feel like I've learned this lesson a lot through my life is to, it has my guard up with. Relationships in general. So I don't know if that's trauma, but I'm very alert in the conversations I have, who I can trust with what and, and what not to say and be protecting of kind of certain things.

[00:14:40] My marriage being one of them, right? Like I don't share any of that in the, in the, in the scope of that I was doing in my twenties, I wasn't married at the point, but I, But relationships at that point, absolutely. Because it becomes sacred and then you don't have to like want to fight people when they say something crazy, you know?

[00:14:59] Yes. [00:15:00] Yes. Well, and one of the challenges that I think of too is once I have forgiven, Myself and the other person I often forget that they haven't necessarily forgiven me so you know some of those reach out moments in and wanting to kind of check in how are you and they like goes to entirely or you get the single word text in response and oh that's right yeah okay so we're still not good and then I start to realize.

[00:15:35] Well, if they're still mad about this, how much do I even need to keep on chasing that? Right. Because I have other people, and I will find other people, who want to love me and want me to love them in whatever, you know, I'm married, so it's not going to be in the romantic way, but certainly as friends, I tell my friends all the time that I love them, and they say it back.

[00:15:57] And we mean it. And [00:16:00] if you're not going to mean it, then let's not say it. And let's just put you on a, I always think of friendships as like concentric rings. And so sometimes they just get downgraded to an outer ring and that's okay. They can still be in my orbit, if you will, but not as tight, not as close.

[00:16:20] And that doesn't mean I have to be angry. And the other thing that makes me think about is, One of the things that I talk to my clients about a lot actually is we judge ourselves by our intentions and we judge others by their behavior. And when I think about a couple of the situations where I've had friendships either get rocky or fall apart, I always came back to well, that's not what I intended for you to feel that wasn't what was in my head and they're reacting based on the behaviors and the words that came out of my mouth without that context of what was in my heart.

[00:16:59] And I [00:17:00] think that is kind of going back to that previous piece. That's what hurts the most is we were that close. I thought you knew my heart. Yeah, but they can't. That but that's the crazy thing is I. When I started therapy, going through again, postpartum, that was the main question she asked. She's like, well, what was your intention behind it?

[00:17:20] So me as a friend, I asked other people, right? Other friends, other relationships that I had to If there's ever a time where you take things like it's something I say offends you, can you at least check in with me? Because maybe it's not my intention and maybe just the wording wasn't right or the tone.

[00:17:41] You took it in a way that it didn't mean to be, but you know me as a person, you know, I would never maliciously do this, this, and this, you know, I would never do that. So if you're accusing me of that, please give me the benefit of the doubt to have a conversation first. Because usually the, like you said, the intention is coming from a place of.

[00:17:59] You [00:18:00] know, good. If I love you and we're friends and I, I, I support you and we, if you've, I've shown up for you many other times in a way that you love and accept me, the one time or the three times that I do it in a way that you don't like, check in. Like, that's the part of friendship I think that a lot of people don't talk about is like, if you know the person.

[00:18:22] Then, you know, their intention is usually for good. And if it's not for good, then you, that's not really your friend. Right. Or at least why are you hanging out with that person? If they're not looking out for you, where's the benefit in that? Yeah. So I, to me, I just. You know, at the end of the day, intention matters.

[00:18:42] And I think more people should question before they start to go to 10, what the other person, especially if they are someone that you love and care about what their intention was from the beginning. Cause it would solve so many conflicts. I feel like from happening. It's funny [00:19:00] how much relationship is tied into forgiveness.

[00:19:03] Just cause typically the people that you have to forgive are work for forgiveness. Two, it's people that you're close to because usually the people that you aren't close to, you're not worried about forgiving them because they don't occupy any of your, any of your space. And then when you start to think about love, like I've heard, I think I might've said it.

[00:19:22] I know Becky and Shannon, I've heard you two say it a couple of times talking about love. And it's like, if somebody that loves you, it's funny because I don't think people really understand what love means anymore, or they have a, a really a misconception of what it means. I was having a conversation and I talked about this on a, on a relationship podcast with a married woman.

[00:19:45] And we were talking about, I said, do you think that unconditional love exists? Is it real? And she said, yes. She said for her sister, like she loves him unconditionally. It's nothing that they could do to make, make them make her stop loving them. [00:20:00] And but she said for like her husband. Like she loves her husband, but it is things that could happen potentially, not saying that she thought it would, but things that could happen potentially that would cause her to stop loving that person.

[00:20:13] And you know, somewhere in between there, inconditional love and conditional love, you think about how powerful love is and sometimes how small. Things are that break up friendships, quote unquote. Well, and I think about it just in terms of family as well, and this idea of I love you, but I don't like you much, kinds of things that have shown up in some of my family relationships at certain times.

[00:20:42] And I, I think that there's one, there's one relationship that is. true in my life where we don't, we don't interact much anymore. And, and it's close enough that it's noticeable that we don't interact very [00:21:00] much anymore. I don't hate that person in my life. I love them still. The difference is that I don't really think that there is a relationship where we're really good for each other.

[00:21:12] We send, we tend to ignite each other's tempers really effectively and We don't really have the mutual skills to be able to talk that down. And in order to get to the place that I am right now in that relationship, I had to forgive myself for needing something from that relationship that I just wasn't going to get.

[00:21:39] It's not who that person is. And you can't ask someone to be someone else because that's who you need them to be. And I had to forgive me for that, and I had to forgive that other person for not ever having the ability to be the person that I needed them to be. [00:22:00] And look, there are all sorts of people around me who judge me for that.

[00:22:05] There are some who actually support me and understand why I would make those choices. As much as I appreciate the support and let go of those people who are judging me for it, it does still sort of matter because it's what kept me in that relationship for a long time. And so I caused a lot of self harm because I continued to interact in a relationship that I knew wasn't constructive for me, but I was doing it for other people.

[00:22:33] Once you think about the love aspect of it and how much, like, I mean, family is one thing, but when you think about when you build friendships and you build that love and you build that trust, cause I feel like love and trust to a certain degree are interchangeable in a, in a sense, like, cause you can't, I don't think you can fully really have a close love without having some semblance of trust.

[00:22:55] Cause you're trusting that person with your heart. And I think a lot of the forgiveness that comes from those [00:23:00] relationships, those friendships that end and over stupid things, maybe are the, the fallback or even Shannon, your story is that, man, I opened myself up enough to love someone or have a relationship where I thought it was love there for them to turn around and take advantage of that.

[00:23:21] And over something trivial. where it doesn't feel like love would let this happen, right? So then you have to forgive yourself. I think for me, like sometimes I have to forgive myself for even being open, open to receive that kind of friendship just because it takes a lot to get into that circle. And you think about getting, like, I'm kind of like you, Becky.

[00:23:43] I have like, You have the innermost circle, the inner outer circle, the outer circle. It's like, it's like levels to this, levels to this friendship thing. And you think somebody gets to your highest level. It's like a breach of protocol. It's like, Yo, I let, I let an imposter into [00:24:00] my inner sanctum. Like, what is going on?

[00:24:02] And you really, I think without forgiveness, I don't know if I would still be able to make friends and be able to trust people because I It takes a lot to forgive yourself for letting someone in that hurts you in that way. And even in love, it takes a lot to, like, if you go through a relationship, all of us have been through bad relationships, when you go through a relationship with somebody that you love and they break your heart into pieces, you have to find some way to forgive yourself to be able to even move on appropriately with somebody else and not carry that baggage of that hurt.

[00:24:38] And to that next relationship, because that is starting out a relationship, stepping on a landmine. Yeah, because all that baggage comes in. To that new relationship. You didn't set it down. You didn't put all that stuff away. So now you have to carry that along with you. And that new person does not deserve that.

[00:24:56] I mean, talk about me setting myself up for forgiving myself in the future [00:25:00] is bringing that baggage into a new relationship. I just like want to go back to something Becky said, because it was, I think you were talking about like a familial relationship and ironically, probably That was a lesson I learned as well, because there's something that is traumatizing to you where it's not good for you.

[00:25:20] The relationship is no longer serving you, serving the purpose. It's draining you more than it's fulfilling you. Like I've gotten to the point where I had someone. Where they would call me and I was like, I don't want to talk to you. And if I, if I say that, that blatantly, like there's, there's, I feel like we need to have an intervention, right?

[00:25:37] At the time I was making excuses and like, Hey, they've been here, they've been there. But when you get to the point where you literally don't enjoy the presence or the conversation with something, you need to self reflect and figure out what it is. And while you can still love a person, you can wish them well.

[00:25:56] You could be cheering for them on the background. Sometimes that [00:26:00] interaction is just not what needs to happen. And I could love you from afar. And sometimes that even happens in family. Doesn't mean there's a lack of love, but it's like, Hey, we are toxic to each other. We are harming each other. We are not good for each other.

[00:26:14] Or I'm enabling you and your bad behavior or vice versa. Let me go over there. You go over there and let's move forward. And I think that's the same with friends. Sometimes you outgrow them. Sometimes becoming a mom was the hardest thing, postpartum aside, you, your responsibilities shift and some people don't understand that.

[00:26:38] So the 2 a. m. phone calls that I was doing before having a baby and whatever issues you're having or drunk calls could not happen anymore. I set boundaries because I had another person that was depending on me. And so that was a very tumultuous time when it came to having friends, but understanding that the dynamics of friendship was going to change and keeping the ones [00:27:00] that understood that was still new.

[00:27:02] My intention, like, Hey, I want to be there for you, but I am tired. You're not my priority anymore. Right. And so I just like, I don't, I don't, I think that there is Beauty in forgiveness of, Hey, maybe I failed you as a friend of what you needed at the time or what your expectations were for me. I will take that on the chin.

[00:27:22] I forgive you for the mistakes that you made and the mistakes that I made, but we don't have to be together anymore in that way. We can see each other every year. Hey, how are you doing? It could shift. And sometimes forgiveness is accepting the failures of whatever the current expectations were. And then moving forward to having realistic stuff because people change, people grow.

[00:27:44] And I also think that is a part of forgiveness is going along with someone's changes enough to, to, to make room for them. to move and forward and grow and not hold on to something that they're no longer, they're not even that person anymore, you know, and [00:28:00] to your point, you are no longer that person anymore.

[00:28:03] I mean, when you talk about the 2 a. m. phone call, boy, that one, that one is so accurate about one relationship that I had where it was stunning to me that I was getting a call at that time a day because I, I hadn't been getting them for years and what are you thinking about calling me in the middle of the night?

[00:28:25] And it blew my mind. And I, I kind of just distanced myself from that person. And ultimately we lost touch with one another and, and that was okay. If I saw that person today, I'd be totally fine talking to him. They still don't get to call me at two o'clock in the morning. I don't have any ill will. I don't have any hard feelings, none of that.

[00:28:48] And in fact, for. All of the relationships that have ended based on weird or tragic kinds of situations, I still, I just can't [00:29:00] carry that around with me. And. that's okay. I think about even some of the work relationships where I wanted to trust my colleagues in some form or fashion, because to me, that's really important to be able to show up as who I am.

[00:29:17] And I still talk about this all the time. And I think about it in terms of what ring they're on. When we were talking before about like the inner ring and the outer ring, most of my work people were not necessarily on that inner ring. There were a couple of people and there are a couple of people who are in that circle, but it took some time to get there.

[00:29:42] And, and we probably weren't working together at the time that they got into there as well. But people who are on that outer circle, I can still like you. I can still call you my friend, but I still need to trust you. and if you break that trust, it's probably going to take a little longer for me to [00:30:00] be all that forgiving and I probably won't forget.

[00:30:04] So I have a question based off of both the of things that both of you guys have said. Do you feel like there are levels of trust and so that impacts kind of how you place the people in these circles of relationships where it's like, I have a slight level of trust versus I will trust you with my life.

[00:30:21] Is that something you kind of process or No, I think there's areas of trust. I think it's some people that you can trust with certain things. And I think wisdom is knowing that certain people you can trust with everything, but certain people you can trust with these things and you can't trust them with this.

[00:30:38] Like you can't, somebody who's addicted to chocolate, I can't trust them to watch my Hershey's bar. You know? The scorpion is going to sting. Exactly. Aesop's Fables. Right. I have it on my bookshelf. I think it's so important to understand what you can trust people with. I [00:31:00] can trust some of my best friends.

[00:31:02] To be at least 30 minutes late. I trust that If I need them to be on time, it's like forget about it. Like I know that you're not good with time management It's nothing against me, it's just the way you operate. Cool. They'll say they own they way, and they'll be getting in the shower.

[00:31:23] So it's like, I feel like it's levels to a lot of things, just like it's rings, so it's like levels to trust. So it's like people who can be on my inner circle, and I think part of understanding Like the love and the trust that you have with people is understanding what you can trust them with. Some people you can trust them inside with work information, but you can't trust them with personal information.

[00:31:47] And establishing those boundaries in yourself and understanding realistically what that stuff means, I think it helps, helps me out tremendously, and I think that the more people that understand that, the more peace you can have with [00:32:00] certain situations. Yeah, and I like that framing of areas of trust because there are some ways that I can really reveal all of what I think about a particular topic or a particular situation and where I feel a little bit more risk, you know, like religion and politics comes to mind where sometimes it's just not in my best interest.

[00:32:26] To reveal everything that I'm thinking and feeling in those moments because they aren't going to like it. And so it's not going to create a really constructive kind of conversation. And why would I put any of us into that situation? So, no, I don't trust you with all of those inside pieces. But as I start to realize that even if we disagree, We can still have a constructive conversation.

[00:32:52] Well then now maybe I'll trust you a little bit more with the inner workings of my heart and mind on those. And then there are the do or die people. [00:33:00] I have people who are in my life that have been in my life for a long time. And, you know, I've been messy and they've loved me anyway, and in they've been messy and I've loved them.

[00:33:16] And. So there's a, a depth to that, that comes with, I think comes with experience and seeing how people react and interact in those moments that makes a big difference for me. Yeah, and I think overall, for me, the lesson was, it's not even levels of trust because I feel like I'm pretty trusting, which is sometimes the reason why I got burned in the past.

[00:33:42] But the, the, the learning experience or the perspective switch for me was everybody, I give everybody room for error because there's no perfect person. And so I'm going to be disappointed at some point in time in any relationship [00:34:00] that I have in this world. So if I give them that room, it's really just how you navigate through that.

[00:34:07] So I have the tools to know that I can voice my frustrations, my concerns. And if we have a safe space, that's all I ask for. If I'm really friends or family with you, if I can say, Hey, I did not like this. I have now have the voice to say that. Didn't always have that. I would just brew and be upset and internalize everything.

[00:34:26] Now it's like, we can have a conversation. If that other person is not in that same space, then that's where the shift in the relationship will come. I give room. I give grace because there is no perfect person. There is no one that's going to show up exactly how you want all the time everywhere, because that's just not.

[00:34:43] We're human. We're going to make those mistakes. And so I err on the side of, I trust you to whatever degree we are, whatever circle we're running in, I can trust you, but your behavior and how you respond when something does go awry, because it [00:35:00] usually does. Cause we're human. That's where I navigate where we are as friends, where we are in the relationship, where we are as family, whatever the case may be, because no one is perfect.

[00:35:09] You're going to be disappointed every single time by something or someone they're going to. Trigger something. So where do you go when that happens? And so that's kind of like the change for me because I would internalize a lot. I would be upset about something. And then there would never be a conversation.

[00:35:26] And the forgiveness was just like on my back, like they're living their best life. I didn't do anything. Fa la la la la. And I'm like, I hate you from 10 years ago. You remember that time? So it is very freeing when you don't have to sit. And do that anymore, where it's like, let's figure this out, I didn't like that.

[00:35:46] Based off your response, okay, I'm gonna put you over there, or we're gonna be like thick as thieves. I think when you talk about freeing, and like, hold, like, kinda like holding on to grudges, and letting that stuff go. One of the other perspectives [00:36:00] that I got from learning how to forgive myself is that, when you learn to forgive yourself, and when you forgive yourself, it does two things.

[00:36:07] I kinda alluded to one earlier. It allows you to let it go. It allows you to let the situation go. It allows you to let that person go sometimes. And it allows you, the other thing that it allows you to do is it gives you permission to move forward and not be stuck in that spot. So when you're living in unforgiveness, you're kind of centralizing around the thing that made you mad.

[00:36:33] Or upset you, and then you're also stuck in that moment, and you really can't get unstuck from that moment and move forward, whether it's a relationship with a friend, a family member, a loved one, whatever the case may be, until you give yourself permission to move forward by forgiving yourself. It's hard to have effective growth and effectively be able to move on.

[00:36:58] Well said. Y'all are preaching on [00:37:00] this episode. Can I say something? Cause I, like, I feel like, again, this happened in my 20s. So, I felt like prior to that, I was stuck. So, I felt like I had the weight of the world. On me, because I was carrying so much wrongdoings, unforgiveness. And a lot of it was just me really internalizing to myself, like, that was a field of friendship or I fell out with them and it's me and I'm crazy.

[00:37:28] And all those emotions that come with it and to then kind of just get unstuck because you realize, and some of these people, like, I have not, it's not like I've gotten these, I had to get over the fact that I wasn't going to have sit down conversations with everybody that I like fell out with. I wasn't gonna be able to go person by person and the one person I did it to, similar to Richard, I was like, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to do this and she's like, what are you talking about?

[00:37:54] Like, you're fine. I don't, I don't even need to, what are you apologizing for? And it was so, I was like, taking it back. I'm like, [00:38:00] Oh, because it took a lot for me to apologize. Because even that I feel like in this society, it's very foreign for people to say, I'm sorry. So to get to that point and the person's like, It really made me think like, people sit, I'm carrying all this weight and you're sitting there living your best life, not even thinking about it.

[00:38:19] And I want to be that person. So I fought and got out of the mud and unstuck and took it all off and said, Hey, like, this is not me. Like, I made mistakes. They made mistakes. Let's move on. Life is too short. Yeah. And early in my life, as I think back, I came from a very defensive perspective where I was protecting myself from any hurt that could be assigned to me, and that kept me walled off from really feeling my feelings, but also letting anyone have feelings for me because there was that brick, there was that wall that was up in [00:39:00] that place.

[00:39:01] And I switched my perspective from, you know, I'm not going to trust you until you prove yourself trustworthy, which is a really steep hill for people to climb in order to get there with me. And I decided I am going to trust you in small pieces. And if you do not betray that trust. Then we'll go to the next test, right?

[00:39:25] And I'm not testing them. I'm testing me. How much can I share of who I am in this moment? And That really felt a lot different I didn't feel like people had to work that hard to be my friend or be in my circle because that's kind of rude anyway and Also, I met a lot of cool people that way. And some of them were not people that I, you know, were nice, but it didn't make them less interesting, but I also could look at it and say, well, they don't have to touch my life in a way [00:40:00] that they can hurt me so that I have to forgive them.

[00:40:03] And that way I could see it and allow them their space in my life, but they weren't in a, in a position to know enough about me to actually betray me. It's funny because. Kind of similar to what I was saying a little bit ago. Unforgiveness is like carrying bags with you. And you carry those bags into every single situation that you go in.

[00:40:26] And you don't even realize that the thing is Shannon, it's a little bit different from what you said, but it's kind of related. Because you're holding on to a grudge that somebody doesn't even know that you have. And you're mad. And it's like, ah, this person. And you're carrying that into the next relationship where you could have met somebody cool, but you're holding that baggage from that previous relationship And, and it's just getting bigger and bigger.

[00:40:49] So like forgiving is so important and it's so important for your health because after a while, like carrying so much baggage, you really start to. To be like a [00:41:00] ball of just like anger, it's kind of like that movies was that that movies about emotions? I think Pixar came out inside out You get so angry you get so charged up because you haven't had that release because you haven't forgiven anything and eventually It starts to affect your health.

[00:41:22] It starts to affect the way that you feel about yourself mentally. It starts to affect your body physically. You start getting stiff and that stuff is real. And I don't know if people really understand it. But when you sit in unforgiveness when you finally get past that and you finally move on, your body feels lighter.

[00:41:39] Absolutely. Well, and in fact, even like your immune system, when, when I was so guarded and so defensive all the time, I don't know how I lived. I, I mean, I was sick a lot during that time. There was no massage that was going to work out the knots in my shoulders [00:42:00] and because it would just instantly go back to tense and to be able to let go of some of that, like my body moves differently now because I see it and I start to feel it and I think, Oh, well, is that really worth carrying around with me?

[00:42:17] Then I can choose to set it down and then almost feel my body. And we've all talked about this, right? Where, wow, I felt free. I felt relieved all of those physical things that we're feeling. And it's also that mental whoosh that happens. where I don't have to think about that anymore. And look how smarter I can be because I can allow other things into my brain.

[00:42:41] Mine's got a limit. That's so ironically, my therapist taught me this. So she used to ask me a question. She said, I want you to identify this situation or this turmoil with a feeling. And she's [00:43:00] like, I want you to be as detailed as possible. I was like, yeah, I'm sad. She's like, well, what are you, like, what do you mean by sad?

[00:43:08] Tell me where you feel that in your body. Tell me where that, like where that pain is coming from. And I would say, and it, it's crazy. Cause if he was processed, like if I'm angry, well, where is it coming from? And a lot of times it was like my heart. Like, my chest is tight. And so we kind of worked through feeling, like, you need to feel what you're feeling, but how do you process that afterwards?

[00:43:32] And so she's like, okay, now is it in your hands? Is it in your back? And we moved forward, like where it was going, where it was flowing to, which is crazy because if you think about what you guys just said, you feel it in your body. It's there. It's living there. And I remember we did exercise. I was going through a friendship breakup and she's like, I was like, where do I feel it right now?

[00:43:52] And I'm like, my heart. And we talked through some stuff and she's like, okay, now where do you feel it? And I was like, Oh, it's in my shoulders. It just feels like a weight. And she's like, [00:44:00] okay. And we talked through some more and then we ended up, it ended up being in my hand. She's like, okay. So they feel like, she's like, do you feel like they're suitcases?

[00:44:06] Or say, I was like, it feels like sand or sandbags. She's like, okay, what is it going to look like? Or what are you going to feel like to place, place it down, place the sand out. And she's like, I want you to like visualize yourself doing that. And through that, I was like, okay. And then I had a rough conversation, but it was like, I was putting the sand down.

[00:44:25] I was taking that extra weight off. And it's crazy because I thought I was crazy talking like that, but sometimes you got to place the emotion and get it out. Yes, that's true. Absolutely. And those visualizations, sometimes I have felt ridiculous doing them on occasion. And at the same time, I remember doing that with a client at one point in time.

[00:44:51] And this is one of my favorite things with a client. They took it in a completely different direction than I would have ever imagined. And [00:45:00] the, the insights that they were able to get because what they noticed during that visualization was really what mattered. And I love hearing what you're talking about there because it's like, okay, so if it moved from your heart to your shoulders, you know, what's changed?

[00:45:15] So what's the story you're telling yourself at this point in time that gets it so that it's on your shoulders? And to me, that's such a cool thing because you can like somatically track, right? Your body is like in motion at that point in time, even though you're sitting there in that chair or lying on the couch, if you're lucky to be able to, uh, hear and feel how that's shifting.

[00:45:41] It was, it was, it was pretty cool. One of the better therapy days. But it's interesting too, because I also think about the process that I go through. And we were kind of talking about this earlier too, where I recognize that they are living rent free in my head. And then [00:46:00] I think, Oh, what should I do about that?

[00:46:03] Because clearly it's not something I want to continue. And, I mean, we kind of alluded to this earlier, but I'm curious if, if you follow a similar path as me, where, for me, I go to me first. What, what is it that I've done that might have created this problem? Is it, is it that they need to forgive me, or I need to forgive me?

[00:46:26] Or were they just obnoxiously rude? And I have every reason to be angry, but I also have to get over it. Right. And I think it's actually harder for me to stop thinking about all the things that I could have done that could have been different in that situation. And there are only been a couple of times that I can think of where it's.

[00:46:50] You know what? I think I did the best that I could do as the person I was in that moment. And I think that it's, it's okay that I [00:47:00] did what I did. And sometimes, you know, tone, things like that. But a lot of times, like, I'm part of the guilty party. In some of it, and I need to own up to that, and then it makes it a little bit easier to forgive the other person because it's not, well, they did all this stuff to me, it's we were both in it, and now that I've owned mine, I can recognize that maybe they have some stuff to own, and then it's easier for me to let the luggage go down the river.

[00:47:30] Same. We're the same. I am shocked.

[00:47:38] I am my own worst critic. So I think the burden I carried was like I would carry it. So I would think about all the things I did wrong, even if it wasn't like saying like certain things like I should have done this, I should have said it this way. And so that is my first In anything at this point in life, I always do a self reflection first and sometimes it is to my [00:48:00] detriment because I will go down a rabbit hole of like, I will have fake conversation.

[00:48:04] I don't know if I'm the only person that does this, fake conversations in my head. I will have fake arguments of like what I want to say versus what I will. So I do self reflect a lot. And you know what? I'm going to take it. I'm going to take my time here on this podcast. Anybody that I've done wrong, I am apologizing now because I have Done the work.

[00:48:26] So if I hurt you, I am so sorry. And that is genuinely coming from my heart because sometimes it's as easy as that, even if you feel like you were right, cause there's no right or wrong in, in arguments or hurt feelings. It's kind of like, if I did something wrong, I want to apologize. And sometimes you don't get the opportunity because the other person never says anything.

[00:48:45] So my. The whole process now is I definitely do self reflect. I really don't do the points of now there are some. I would dare say that the story I shared in the beginning, a lot of it was not on [00:49:00] me, but maybe I wasn't in the best place. Maybe I didn't receive the information the best way, or maybe they tried to talk to me and they couldn't.

[00:49:08] So I'm giving that the benefit of the doubt. Does it excuse their wrongdoing? Absolutely not. But I have forgiven myself for where I was at the time. Maybe the way I was talking, maybe the things, the way I was showing up, or whatever the case may be. And I forgave them for the malicious intent of their, of their conversations outside of me being present.

[00:49:29] That is a very eloquent way of saying that. Yeah, yeah, well done. Yeah, you. So, there's my apology, Tor. So, I'm, I'm with both of you on that. How was the process for you when you are unequivocally the one in the wrong? Because I feel like those are the harder times to forgive yourself. It's one thing to forgive yourself, For trusting someone else.

[00:49:48] It's a whole nother thing to forgive yourself when you were 100 percent wrong and you did something that was out of line or out of character or mean, and you hurt [00:50:00] somebody's feelings. And now you have to forgive yourself, but you have to apologize. Hopefully you can still apologize to the person that you hurt.

[00:50:08] And then if they don't accept that apology, you have to forgive yourself. Again, like, I feel like it's a little bit harder in those situations, and I'm curious how you two deal with those. See, now, this might be the Virgo in me, so I'm just gonna preface it with that. It's very rare that I would say that I maliciously did something where it's my fault.

[00:50:32] Now, could I have hurt somebody by something I said or did? Absolutely. One of those instances is what I talked about, where I felt like I participated in bashing and hurting somebody. That woman, I said, Hey, I'm so sorry. I didn't, I partook. She's like, what are you talking about? So in, in my mind, this is, this is how I process it.

[00:50:54] My intentions are always good for the, for the starting part [00:51:00] and, or, Hey, I might be going through a dark thing and I might be really messy. I admit that to myself first. That, that's how, where I start because maybe I'm having a bad day, someone pissed me off and I'm taking it out on someone else. My prime example is, I know it's very small and minute, is my son.

[00:51:18] I have temper tantrums just like kids have temper tantrums, adults do too. So I take those opportunities. I have made my child cry. Sorry guys, don't call anybody on me, but he has cried. I've had moments where I just don't have the patience. Me, as a parent, I understand that I hurt my child. This is what I do.

[00:51:40] I am so sorry. I didn't mean to make you. Mommy is tired. There's an explanation because usually my intention is not to do that, but something might have triggered that. So in those instances where something like that happens, I'll be the first to say I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention. I'm sorry, and maybe some people look at it as an excuse because that's happened to me before, but at least I'm telling [00:52:00] you, hey, That wasn't my intention.

[00:52:01] I was having crap day or my boss pissed me off or whatever, you know, cause sometimes it's just a reaction of something else and I'm taking it out on you or you did something and we can talk about it because we haven't talked about it. So for me, I do self reflect, I apologize, but I don't think it ever comes from a malicious intention.

[00:52:20] So I always say that wasn't my intention to do that. I did not mean to hurt you. But, and some people don't like that, but here is why. And then we can have a conversation. That's how I go about it. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but that's where I start. Yeah. And for me, sometimes the words just don't come out, out loud in the same way that they got built on the inside of my brain, and then they come out and I think, well, that, that sounds rude and it's not, it's not where my heart was.

[00:52:53] And yet, as soon as it's out, I'm like, oh, let's put those back in. And that's what it made me think of [00:53:00] when you asked that, Richard. And I think a big part of it for me comes down to one, right, if I notice it right away, I want to say something right away. Wait, hold on. That sounded so much better in my head and it doesn't sound good the way that it just came out.

[00:53:18] So as soon as I can construct that apology, I want to make sure that I do that. And then other times I just don't even know how stupid I was. And then it takes the courage of the other person to come up and say, Hey, this is how I felt when that happened. And I did have a person, I wasn't necessarily.

[00:53:40] Forgiveness necessarily, but I did have someone come up to me and she said, I just find you so intimidating. That devastated me. It devastated me. Not because. I'm so intimidating, which apparently I am because I get that feedback sometimes, but I didn't want her [00:54:00] to feel the hurt of being intimidated. And I actually started asking her questions about if you want, do you mind talking to me a little bit about what that looks like?

[00:54:09] Because I don't mean to do that and I don't ever want to do that again. So let's talk a little bit about how. I can learn from what you're saying so that I can stop doing the things that make you feel that way. I'm also of the opinion that I can't make you feel a certain way, but if there are things that I am doing that prompts you to feel that way, then I, you know, I'm at least taking it under advisement.

[00:54:34] If I can change it. So I might get a little bit curious about how and what were the elements. So I'm not assuming that I know what I did wrong. I want, I want you to kind of give me a little bit of insight so that I don't step into it again. And to tag onto what you're saying, sometimes I think that. When we are in the wrong as individuals, sometimes it's just clarification.

[00:54:58] I don't think it needs [00:55:00] forgiveness all the time because it could just be a misunderstanding. And I think there's a difference between misunderstandings that hurt you versus something, someone doing something wrong, mean and malicious. And I have to forgive because a misunderstanding could be, Cut and dry, like, hey, you hurt my feelings, but, oh, you didn't mean it, like, let's laugh about it, blah, blah, blah, blah, later.

[00:55:17] And so, I think, it doesn't, no, no, no, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't, because it depends on the level of hurt, but I'm saying, I think a lot of the times. Forgiveness starts with clarifying the incident, because if I don't know that I offended you or I don't know, I hurt you, give me the benefit of the doubt.

[00:55:36] We're going back to relationships. If you know my heart, you know, my intention, give me the benefit of doubt to at least address the hurt or the wrongdoing I did for you. Now, if Richard, you said Shannon, you hurt my feelings and I said, okay. That's different,

[00:55:54] but if you come and say, Hey, you hurt my feelings, like, Hey, what happened? I'm getting clarification. I'm so [00:56:00] sorry. That wasn't my intention. Do you see, do you see the difference where it's, there needs to be some type of clarification. You can't expect someone to apologize. Without even knowing they did anything wrong.

[00:56:11] So there's a, I, if you tell me I did something wrong, you tell me I hurt you, let's have a conversation, then the apology can happen, but if it never happens, now if you know you did something wrong, again, if I know I did something wrong, if I, if I was on the streets talking about Richard and he overheard, I am so sorry, I was having a bad day and I just felt like being petty and messy.

[00:56:30] For me, like whenever I've done anything wrong in the past, because you know, none of us are perfect. We all make mistakes. I think the first thing that I had to do to get over it and start to move forward was One, like, give myself permission to not be perfect, because that's something that I struggle with.

[00:56:48] It's like, I always want to do it right, and when I do it wrong, I replay it in my head. So I, one, have to acknowledge that I'm human and I'm not going to be perfect all the time. Two, I have to really [00:57:00] analyze the situation, understand what the offense was, what I did wrong, what I could have did better. Like, even if it was a misunderstanding, how could I have prefaced it better?

[00:57:10] Like, how did I preface it wrong? How did I contribute to the situation? And then three, I feel like it's very important whenever you can, especially because you don't always know when it's going to be a time that you can't apologize to that person if you're able to. And even if your friendship doesn't get restored or whatever the situation may be, I think just for yourself mentally, it helps you move on because you know, at that point you've done all you can.

[00:57:37] You've analyzed it. You know, you went through your progressions, everything that you need to do, and then you give a sincere apology to that person. Now, if they don't forgive you, they have to carry that baggage, but once I give that, that's no longer on me. So I'm saying like, Hey, if you want to carry this baggage, it's yours to carry along.

[00:57:56] I can't carry it with you. So that's kind of like my process, [00:58:00] but it really starts with, Hey, you're not perfect. You don't have to be perfect all the time. You make mistakes. And once I acknowledge that in myself, because usually when you, when I do something. It's something more to do with me than the other person.

[00:58:14] Well said. And I really think that forgiveness, the best way to do it is to start with yourself, like you said. If you forgive yourself, you reflect and self reflect with yourself, the other aspect of forgiving the other person comes by so much easier. Thanks for joining us on this journey. Remember the world looks different through every lens.

[00:58:34] Before you go, we'd love to hear from you. What's a moment in your life that changed how you see the world? Use the link in the show notes to share your story with us. Your voice helps us grow and your stories keep the conversation going. I'm Shannon on behalf of myself, Becky, and Richard. Thanks for listening.

[00:58:50] Until next time.